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Radhja
11-25-2007, 08:27 PM
Well, Revelation Guild (Nathrezim) is going on it's first 25-man run tomorrow - in Gruul's Lair!

What do we need to know as far as:

- Minimum & Recommended MT/OT specs needed to survive.
- Gruul's attacks & tactics
- Recommended Talent Spec
- Gear focus/recommendations
- Raid organization (how many tanks/DPS/healers)

Any and all info is greatly appreciated. I'll be watching Gruul videos until tomorrow. :)

Oda
11-25-2007, 10:40 PM
Grats, and welcome to 25-mans. :)

I'm guessing you haven't done Maulgar, so I'll start there.

Raid makeup:
3 Tanks
1 or 2 solid Warlocks
7 or 8 healers
2 guys that can ranged-tank the Shaman (hunters work best, plus, it's good to have a hunter or two along, as Misdirect makes the setup far easier).
At least two or three melee for interrupts.

For Gruul, you can weed out a tank, and replace him with DPS (though having a 3rd tanking building aggro can sometimes save a wipe, if the MT or OT get owned through a bad silence).

For Gruul, I'd also suggest having several healers who can HoT, having a couple Resto Druids along for this fight is terribly helpful, but Priests can help out quite a bit also.

At that stage of the game, a Bear is an excellent OT for Gruul. The hits can't crush, and the Bear's armor + high dodge + high HP make them an excellent choice. Paladins are also quite good after 2.3, as the silence doesn't prevent them from being OTs (they have a very tough time MTing Gruul), and you'll likely get full use out of Ardent Defender.

After about Grow 9, you'll likely need to switch a 2nd healer to healing the OT full-time as well, though if you have a Resto Druid or two Hotting up both tanks, it may not be an issue.

About Grow 13-14 (depending on your tank), all your MT healers just start spamming their biggest heals. That's what it takes to keep him alive.

(Hmm...these are more stream-of-consciousness tips, aren't they?)

Gruul tanks are *all* about EH. This is a *huge* collective gear check, and your tanks will take a *ton* of damage, especially in early attempts where your DPS is dying while getting used to Ground Slams.

Try not to let your raid get frustrated, because you'll likely get him below 50% after a couple of tries, because his damage is so low in the beginning, and then wipe as his Grows keep ticking off.

That's all I can think off, offhand. :)

klor
11-26-2007, 05:55 AM
One thing that wasn't mentioned...you also need a MAGE tank for the mage add. This mage needs to stack alot of stamina....atleast 10K unbuffed while being able to keep his mana up and hold agro on the mob while the others are dealt with. Its not unlikely that at first this mage will need an innervate halfway through the fight until the group gets to maulgar. Another thing to remember....if something goes wrong...

Maulgar is NOT immune to taunt.

This makes him so trivial after 50% and it took me about 3 weeks of doing the fight before i learned it because the OT accidently taunted him off of me.

Other than that, the High King fight is just about people being on their toes and learning the pull. Once you do the fight once and down HKM, it becomes quite easy as long as you meet the minimum gear checks. When first starting out, it may be necessary to put 3 healers on the MT.

Sangi
11-26-2007, 07:43 AM
As a modification to the list above I would suggest 3 hunters for misdirects on the pulls. One to the MT, one to the person tanking the healer and one for the tanks tanking the warlock.

As we found out last night. Don't have people stand on the rocks along the edge of the cave. If they do so and they get aggro the mobs will evade bug and you will not be able to get them back on the tanks.

In addition we had problems keeping the warlock locked down last night. We had two pally tanks on him but the fears off of him were a bit too much. Our warlock was banishing the felhound instead of enslaving and tanking him with it. Is this our problem? I had seen it done with two tanks previously without an issue.

Shortypop
11-26-2007, 07:57 AM
About the warlock, imo he's the most dangerous of all of HKM's mates and HKM himself, a deathcoiled MT healer is pretty fatal. We use two tanks (usually dps warriors in def gear) and two warlocks with high (or max) spellhit - to decrease chance of resisting. Pretty sure our locks always enslave but not sure if they tank with them or not.

We run with the following (Gruul down 4 or 5 times now - so also fairly new to it)

Healers:
1 on Priest tank
1 on mage tank (priest with a shield is useful)
1 on hunter tank
1 on warlock tanks (can be helped by the priest healer)
3 on MT (nice mix of healing classes works well)
-- priests fearward make HKM easier, and as many pally buffs as you can find :)

Tanks:
Feral druid (tanks priest, ot's gruul)
Prot warrior (tanks HKM and gruul)
2 dps warriors
2 hunters (with about 100 unbuffed nature res) - one misd's the warlock
1 mage (in stamina gear while maintaining spell hit)
2 locks (in high spellhit gear)

Useful other dps:
1 hunter - to misd to tank
1 lock - for bloodpact for both mage tank and hkm tank

For HKM as said before the pull is the "make-or-break" point, once you're hunters and mage tank have got their timing right and once the priest is down, things become a lot more manageable.

For Gruul, the practice comes on avoiding as much shatter damage as possible and getting the melee to check both tanks are in range before dps'ing after shatters. HoT's are very useful for the silences. Many people will say max of 5 melee dps for gruul, we've done it with 8 as long as some of them are intelligent rogues who shouldn't damage anyone, it's do'able. Major thing is not to lose anyone in the first two shatters.

Have fun :)

Taelas
11-26-2007, 08:03 AM
When I used to raid with my Feral druid, I always tanked the shaman -- so if you don't have a ranged class capable of tanking him, a Feral druid can do the job.

Sangi
11-27-2007, 07:02 AM
Ok I dug through our WWS log last night and talked with the tanks on the warlock. Apparently he was fearing the same tank over and over and following him around around the room. When that tank would die to a blast wave or go out of range of healing he would turn not to the other tank but start Death Coiling one of the healers from healing aggro.

The fear mechanic has changed in 2.3 since I last did this fight. I talked with the tanks and this week they are going to work on the +hit and taunt as soon as the fear goes off. I am hoping that that should keep him focused on one of the tanks instead of running around every where.

Lavache
11-27-2007, 08:17 AM
you can also have a chicken tank the shaman. they are immune to the poly and have pretty high resists being shapeshifted. they will put out plenty of damage to keep aggro and from what i have read wont take much damage.

Radhja
11-27-2007, 02:08 PM
Well, here's the summary of last night's trials and tribulations after our first attempt.

4 Tanks
9 Healers
the rest was DPS, mostly... wasn't really paying much attention :P

First Attempt: Miserable failure. This was the "learning the pull" phase, and was quite expected. Something went wrong with Misdirection assignments and the Priest ran around for about 30 seconds before I was able to snag him back.

Second Attempt: Priest was tanked correctly, but Warlock ran amok here. Lasted about 45 seconds before the MT was Death Coiled and immediately dropped by Maulgar.

Third Attempt: Downed the Priest with no trouble this time, ran down the Lock and started tanking him, but he evaded when he ran into a wall and reset his health from 35% to 80%. Few seconds later, wipe. Still not sure why, but I think the raid leader typed "Run Out", and only half the raid paid attention. I, apparently, was one of the ones who didn't catch the message.

Fourth Attempt: Mage tanking the Mage add DC'd right after the pull. Wipe.

Fifth Attempt: We finally got it right this time, and downed Maulgar in just under six minutes.


Then, as OT, I was asked to sub out for DPS, so I didn't even get to see Gruul. :(

... so I went and played D&D with some friends. When I came back, I heard they wiped and eventually gave up cause they couldn't kill Gruul in time to avoid 15+ growths.

... glad I was sub'd out now. :P

Bulldozzer
12-09-2007, 04:08 AM
Warlock tanking just became trivial.

With 2.3.2 (I believe) the warlock's fear and switch to nearby healer became a fear and chase mechanic. It makes the need for a second tank/dps warr with sword and board unnecessary.

Tanked him with no problems other than cursing the fears. Keeping threat was a breeze. He now simply follows you around after he fears you.

hbombs
12-11-2007, 07:03 AM
yup the warlock will remain on the deathcoiled tank the whole time except for when a fel hunter is tanking him. I would suggest always enslaving the felhunters to tank with especially if u have a dps warr in tank gear doing olm.

another trick we do is have the Tank and Healer waiting way back by the portal and have a hunter MD OLM this way olm is far away from the rest of the raid. and u never have to worry about the mage AOE.


For the Gruul fight you only want two tanks. they say one prot warr and one feral druid but we use two prot warriors. Hunters throw a MD on MT at initial pull. 20 seconds later the rest of the hunters do a MD rotation on the off tank and threat is a non issue.

this fight just takes a lil practice. once your dps stops getting owned in the shatter and healers get used to keeping the tank up you will own him.

Skindog
12-11-2007, 08:11 AM
I would like to know if I am geared for this fight.....
Our guild has cleared Kara and moving on to Gruul this week and I think my gear is up to the task but not sure.

My tankspot sig. links to my armory.... (I logged w/ my riding crop and skyguard cape...usually wear Farstrider's Cloak and Auto-Blocker trinket or Adamantine Figurine trinket)

Mordigen
12-13-2007, 11:33 AM
I am fairly new to the instance myself, but the guide I was always told was to have a minimum of 17k health with buffs which you shouldn't have a problem. This is a big EH fight I am told too, so the more stam and armor you can have the better, and your healers have to be on the ball and keeping you alive through the big swings from HKM. I am not sure if that guide holds true for Gruul or not, but it is a good starting place for the instance, and usually it is something other than the tank going down that wipes the raid anyways, atleast from my experience last I was there, and that was mostly blue gear with just over 17k buffed.

Dansodai
12-18-2007, 06:17 AM
We went into Gruul's last night and one shotted HKM and headed towards Gruul's and it was a sad, sad sight.

On the first attempt they stuck me as the backup tank that stays 3rd on melee threat because our guild's main warrior tank was on at the moment and we wiped at like 60%.

Second attempt aound 40% with like half the raid dying on the first shatter.

We came back in with me as MT and the warrior that was previously MT switching over to his boomkin alt. (Which worked last week, we downed Gruul fast with me MTing, a druid hateful strike soaking and a warrior as backup)

We get him down to 15% and then everything just goes downhill from there, healers are D/Cing, people randomly afking, it just wasn't a good night.

So, we're going back in there tonight. Hopefully we get a resto druid this time around for their HoTs. I couldn't tell you how many times I sat at 40% health for like 10 seconds with no heals. At around growth 12-13, mind you.

Hope my shield drops! :P

Irellman
12-25-2007, 09:04 AM
To be honest, attempts on Gruul to 15% are good for a start. Gruul is a relatively big gear check for all membersa of your raid. The strats here are great so keep doing what you are doing. I would recommend keeping WoW Web Stats and looking closly at all attempts at the end of the night. Who is pulling their weight? Who is not?

Assigning edges of the wall, slopes or poles for each member to stand round and moving there with 10 secs to a ground slma is very important. Losing DPS for 10 secs is better than losing DPS. Good luck though, if you can down Gruul as a guild you should be set for some 25-man action.

Mordigen
12-26-2007, 07:05 AM
We were having a weird issue with Gruul last week. I was MTing on my prot warrior. I was sitting at about 20k health and near 17k armor with all kara epics or badge gear. No problems with threat, way ahead of the pack. I was getting him down below 40% no problem then I would slowly start falling in health, and not getting hit for anything extraordinary, and eventually I would die and it would get chaotic. So we ended up switching our tanking order since the OT at the time could not keep second on the list. We had a pally MT with me second. The pally had good gear with maybe around 16k health and 16k armor or somewhere in that range. We took Gruul out without him dying at all that time. Is there something that would help a pally tank out in this situation, or was I just having healers fall asleep on me or something? I was having a hard time understanding how someone with less armor and health was having an easier time tanking this.

Bonerot
12-26-2007, 07:15 AM
Sounds like your problem was the dps was holding back since they need to stay behind the pally. With the pally in the MT position you may have raised the threat cap by being the OT.

It seems a bit strange but if you have 2 warrior/pally tanks it makes the most sense to put the strongest player in the OT position since they will need to generate a lot of threat without a lot of rage. Feral druids are the best choice for OT though.

Mordigen
12-27-2007, 01:04 PM
I don't know if DPS was holding back, I think they just blew by the OT till people started realizing they are taking a lot of damage and it is to late. We usually use our druid tank for the dps since he is a much better option for cat form than a prot warrior or prot pally dpsing. I just thought it weird that it seemed harder to keep the tank with more armor and health alive, unless it was just taking that much longer and we were getting into higher growths or something. I am sure we are sticking with the Pally MT me OT for now anyways, even though I would love another shot at him in the tanking seat.

Bonerot
12-27-2007, 01:35 PM
If they blew past the OT then the OT wasn't capable of generating enough threat to not wipe the raid. Thats why I suggested putting the strongest player in the OT spot. Some where along the lines people have confused MT & OT as better and second best, generally in the fights I've see thus far that require OT's it is a more challenging position. It's easier to be the MT. Don't let pride wipe your raid ;)

Andromedea
12-27-2007, 07:23 PM
Well I have to agree with the above. I was OT for Gruul and the real "threat cap" is the OT's threat and not the MT. I wished after that that I had volunteered to be the MT because I have a good EH set and not a very good threat gen set.

I wound up being extremely rage starved while trying to generate threat, a good way to get some free rage is to stand around in Cave-ins. ;p In the end I think I slowed down DPS considerably.

I fully agree that the choice of OT in Gruul is extremely important. Get someone capable for that role. The role of the MT here is comparatively simple.

Mordigen
12-28-2007, 10:56 AM
Okay, thanks for the advice. I can see the benefit to the raid as a whole to have the OT someone that can keep up the threat list. It probably was just a pride thing that Gruul was more challenging with me as the MT and someone else OTing, knowing that we were having problems with me in the tanking spot. As long as we can keep dropping him I am happy though. Not really going after the legs, but wouldn't mind the shield.

Stytches
02-20-2008, 12:36 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Intervene can help those rage starved OT Warriors a bit right? I mean the MT doesn't need to get "All" the pounding.. (greedy bastiches)

Nuberino
02-20-2008, 01:54 PM
Intervening can be used by the OT's as well once you get to the higher growths during a silence.

That said, having never OT'd the fight, can you get crushed when you intervene someone?

Valdemar
02-20-2008, 02:39 PM
Then, as OT, I was asked to sub out for DPS, so I didn't even get to see Gruul. :(

Still... I would have told then to kiss my shiny, plated ass and find themselve a new OT

Cronaldo
07-08-2008, 07:30 AM
I didnt find min req to tank Gruuls :(