PDA

View Full Version : Yes they are high on Effective Health...



Runejack
11-19-2007, 02:36 PM
But should I really consider using skullshatter warboots over boots of elusion for effective health fights? Uncrittability shouldn't be a problem, but it just feels wrong! I got these last night on a greed roll with no ret pallies or dps warriors in our group. battlescar boots have never fallen for me. :confused:

Fearonir
11-19-2007, 02:47 PM
Well, how do you plan on socketing them?

veneretio
11-19-2007, 03:10 PM
As long as you can maintain 490, I see nothing wrong with getting 100 more armor and 27 more Stamina.

Taelas
11-19-2007, 03:11 PM
Skullshatter are DPS boots. I wouldn't use them.

Fearonir
11-19-2007, 03:13 PM
Yeah as said above, if you're still 490 without actual tanking boots, go for it.

Runejack
11-19-2007, 05:52 PM
Skullshatter are DPS boots. I wouldn't use them.

It was THIS (http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/gear-lists-rankings/33516-gear-comparison-eh-avoidance.html) sticky thread that made me pause and even ask the question.

Socketed with 2 solid stars of elune to maximize health put them much higher ranked than either Kara drop for effective health. It even lists them higher than the jungle stompers that I've been hoping to have drop for me!

I posted this because I was incredulous that DPS plate boots might actually be considered for tanking bosses! I'm not sure if I can bring myself to use them. It's funny, because of all the new boot choices, I now wonder if jungle stompers would be best for prot pallies and sabatons of the righteous defender would be the best new 2.3 boot for prot warriors! (based off the list I linked above) This all is kind of giving me a headache. Tell me why I'm wrong please!

thugthedum
11-19-2007, 06:15 PM
You can wear anything you like, really.

In some fights, threat is #1. EH is always useful. In that fight, yes put on those crit/str boots. Hell socket them with a solid star and defender's tanzanite. It took me a while to see my Bulwark of Kings as a tanking chest, but it is. And a damned fine one.

I wouldn't give up a single point of any one of those stats unless I'm in an avoidance fight.

I hear you though, I've got Boots of Elusion Eaglecrest Warboots Battlescar Boots and Edgewalker Longboots in my bags all the time. I put 12 stam on all of them. I equip battlescar most of the time, with a dodge rock and a stam rock. If my health goes under 16k (my emotional limit) I'll replace the 8 dodge with a 12 stam. And it's funny; while I think of Elusion as the avoidance boots, with a 12 stam and a 8 dodge they're pretty darned close.

Runejack
11-19-2007, 06:40 PM
You can wear anything you like, really.

In some fights, threat is #1. EH is always useful. In that fight, yes put on those crit/str boots. Hell socket them with a solid star and defender's tanzanite. It took me a while to see my Bulwark of Kings as a tanking chest, but it is. And a damned fine one.

I wouldn't give up a single point of any one of those stats unless I'm in an avoidance fight.

I hear you though, I've got Boots of Elusion Eaglecrest Warboots Battlescar Boots and Edgewalker Longboots in my bags all the time. I put 12 stam on all of them. I equip battlescar most of the time, with a dodge rock and a stam rock. If my health goes under 16k (my emotional limit) I'll replace the 8 dodge with a 12 stam. And it's funny; while I think of Elusion as the avoidance boots, with a 12 stam and a 8 dodge they're pretty darned close.

When do you find yourself using eaglecrest warboots? I have those but I can't recall using them more than once or twice.

thugthedum
11-19-2007, 07:42 PM
I equip 'em running heroics. I love all those "four stat" plate pieces from the Heroics. It's great for, well, heroics. Sometimes I use them in PVP too when I'm playing to stay alive. Nice avoidance from the agi and the defense, nice health, nice crit, nice AP from the str. I will admit I never equip them in a proper raid, other than maybe Aran to reduce the healers load on the elementals but still have some pwn.

Nice gear, btw.

Aelvain
11-20-2007, 01:14 AM
No, do not use them for tanking bosses. Elusion are far, far, far better for absolutely any tanking situation aside from maybe a 5 man or heroic or something. This would be an example of trading in a lot of avoidance (which is quite valuable) for a little health. Not worth it by any stretch of the imagination, Elusion are the best tanking boots pre-SSC/TK, though if you need more hp terribly just wait for Battlescar. Socket those boots for dps.

Narshe
11-20-2007, 02:23 AM
On 25 mans after Karazhan there is a lot more fights where EH favors over avoidance. Honestly only ZA have three fights where you need avoidance, the rest are EH aswell. Elusion are a really good item, but very poor on EH. I would wear them only if my avoidance is really poor. The dps boots, with solid elunes are better in every fight that favor EH. And imho, 25sta is not "little health".

Razmo
11-20-2007, 02:28 AM
We should make a topic when to use EH/Avoidance gear :D

Narshe
11-20-2007, 03:55 AM
I guess that was already settled. Always go for EH on new content; against fast hitters avoidance is the way to go because they can eat your shield block faster; on farmed content the best thing to do is to get enough EH pieces to meet the minimum required and the rest of your gear with avoidance or threat, depending on the encounter.
At least that's the way I've understand I should wear from the guides found in this page.

Razmo
11-20-2007, 04:06 AM
Yeah we all know that but we havent got a list which hit fast so go avoidance and which hit slow but hard. something like:

Karazhan:
Attumen the Huntsman
Moroes
Maiden of Virtue
Wizard of Oz
The Big Bad Wolf
Romulo and Julianne
The Curator
Terestian Illhoof
Shade of Aran
Chess Event -
Netherspite
Prince Malchezaar
Nightbane

Zul'Aman:
Nalorakk
Akil'zon
Jan'alai
Halazzi
Hex Lord Malacrass
Zul'jin

Serpentshrine Cavern:
Hydross the Unstable
The Lurker Below
Morogrim Tidewalker
Fathom-Lord Karathress
Leotheras The Blind
Lady Vashj

Tempest Keep
Al'ar
Void Reaver
High Astromancer Solarian
Kael'thas Sunstrider

Hyjal Summit
Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz Rogal
Azgalor
Archimonde the Defiler

Black Temple
High Warlord Naj'entus
Supremus
Shade of Akama
Teron Gorefiend
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Essence of Souls
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council
Illidan Stormrage

Ont
11-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Yeah we all know that but we havent got a list which hit fast so go avoidance and which hit slow but hard. something like:

I'll identify three main sets of gear. "avoidance" "effective health" and "threat". They should be fairly self explanatory. In reality, you should be ready to equip varying degrees of each set. I run about 7 different itemrack profiles for full gear switches (EH, avoidance, threat-based +hit combo, solid all-around combo leaning toward EH, solid all-around combo leaning toward avoidance, ap/hit heavy combo for 5-mans, low avoidance/high health SBV-focused threat-minded combo for raid trash.). Then, I have three different shield/sword combos (mitigation MH/Ranged, threat weapon/threat ranged, threat weapon/mitigation ranged... of course, now that I use my Mallet of the Tides in all sets I only have 2 of the aforementioned 3). I switch between gear sets often in a raid instance.

Karazhan: Karazhan is a tricky instance as there is a huge difference in difficulty from start to finish. My views may be slightly slanted because I got into karazhan pretty early (and didn't have a 25 man raid to go to afterward due to scheduling, in case you armory me and see I'm still wearing mostly kara gear), but the fights you start with and the fights you end with are dramatically different in terms of gear requirements. If you can finish the instance, the early fights will be so easy that your gear really doesn't matter much and a balance between the two schools of thought (avoidance, EH) and threat (+hit > SBV > Str > avoidance) is good to shoot for.

Attumen the Huntsman - Best overall gear. This is a gimme fight at full blue level of gearing, so just wear your best gear. EH theory is theoretically the way to go but he doesn't hit hard enough to make that all too viable. Threat gear (primarily +hit) is also important on this fight since there are sizeable chunks of the fight where he is off you (his charge/return is so freaking slow) and being able to disarm him without missing will dramtically decrease the amount of damage he does for the duration of the disarm.

Moroes - Dual-wielder, hit fairly weak but fast. This is a classic example of an avoidance fight (note: If one of your adds is the holy paladin and your dispellers aren't on the ball, go with EH because the paladin will toss out BoM all around and all of sudden Moroes hits like a truck).

Maiden of Virtue - EH, but keep some "on use" trinkets (Moroes watch, Adamantium figurine, etc) to use during the repentance to buy healers time.

Wizard of Oz - Threat gear.

The Big Bad Wolf - Stamina/avoidance/threat, runspeed enchant.

Romulo and Julianne - Romula is a dual-wielder, go avoidance. Julianne is a creampuff, go threat.

The Curator - EH. You've got plenty of time alone on him, no one is going to touch your threat. Just keep yourself alive.

Terestian Illhoof - EH/Threat gear. He hits pretty weakly and high DPS is important.

Shade of Aran - Uh. Dual-wield DPS gear hoooo!

Chess Event- Farmer's Overalls and a pitchfork, mandatory.

Netherspite - EH. Threat is pretty much a non-issue unless your DPS is stupid on transitions. Switch to dual-wielding and a +hit ranged weapon and spam devastate/hs while you're not tanking a red beam (preferably while in green).

Prince Malchezaar - EH/Avoidance are both valuable here. During the rocky part of the fight (phase 2), he dual-wields, which tends toward avoidance. However, his thrash gives him instant attacks that are virtually the same as being a heavy hitter. If you can acheive passive crushing immunity, do so! If you can't, balance EH and avoidance. Tend toward avoidance, but not if it puts you under some key EH threshholds based on your healers.

Nightbane - Pure EH. Hits hard, hits slow, fears healers.

Zul'Aman:
Nalorakk - EH, EH, EH, EH.
Akil'zon - Stamina/threat. His melee is a non-factor, but you'll take magic damage in a melee heavy group. Stamina, not EH, seems to be the key here.
Jan'alai - I've not seen this fight, but I'd say balance is good. EH to give healers some breathing room.
Halazzi - I've not seen this fight, but I'd venture to say EH for the MT, threat for the OT.
Hex Lord Malacrass - I've not seen this fight, can't really say. Read Ciderhelm's guide on ZA. He discusses different approaches.
Zul'jin - I've not seen this fight, can't really say.

Serpentshrine Cavern:
Hydross the Unstable - Resistance then Stamina. EH is a one-sided equation on this fight, his damage is elemental so armor doesn't do that much.
The Lurker Below - EH for MT. Threat for add tanks.
Morogrim Tidewalker - EH, EH, EH.
Fathom-Lord Karathress - Depends on role. EH for shaman/FL tank. Others vary.
Leotheras The Blind - Warlock costume, lolz (I've not seen the fight, can't comment any more intelligently- sorry!).
Lady Vashj - I have not seen this fight.

Tempest Keep - Never been here!

Hyjal Summit - Never been here!

Black Temple - Never been here!

veneretio
11-20-2007, 02:36 PM
Honestly only ZA have three fights where you need avoidance, the rest are EH aswell.
I assume one you are noting is the Lynx boss. While yes he does eat up your shield block charges, he also doesn't crush. This means that you should still gear for EH, but that Block Value is not strong.

I like to think that Avoidance is only better than EH when Crushing Blows are a factor. (Prince being a prime example)

veneretio
11-20-2007, 03:52 PM
I use Bastion of Light as my EH tanking shield....

if the stats are better, the stats are better, what else can you say.
Tell me about it.

Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian is a huge upgrade for a warrior using the Bold Chestpiece.

Ont
11-21-2007, 07:15 AM
Tell me about it.

Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian is a huge upgrade for a warrior using the Bold Chestpiece.

As is the Bloodstained Elven Battlevest. Really, though, the creme de la creme of EH chestpieces introduced with the patch is the Vengeful one. Gemmable up to 103 stamina, 1825 armor. It's also got 12 hit, 39 points of both crit rating and strength, aaaand resilience. The deeper I get into ZA, the more heavily I'm going to be looking at resilience for some of my crit immunity.

Badge reward gloves/neck, ZA head, shield and tanking axe are all defense-less. Eep!

Aelvain
11-22-2007, 03:01 AM
I assume one you are noting is the Lynx boss. While yes he does eat up your shield block charges, he also doesn't crush. This means that you should still gear for EH, but that Block Value is not strong.

I like to think that Avoidance is only better than EH when Crushing Blows are a factor. (Prince being a prime example)

I'm not sure what in ZA requires high EH at all. While my raid and I were admittedly far overgeared for the content (all mains on the first night), not a single boss seemed to have much burst potential. 10 mans favor avoidance more in general just due to the nature of the amount of healers that are brought with, and if there is any damage on the raid at all a boss is not going to be programmed to have the capability of 2 shotting someone. Maybe Lynx would require more health than the others, but I can't draw from personal experience as only one of his Saber Lashes landed on me the whole fight, but that's also a fight where the healers have almost nothing to do aside from heal the tanks.

Avoidance is better than more EH when you have enough for the given encounter. There isn't a benefit to having, say, 20k health vs. 16k health for Attumen or something.

Aelvain
11-22-2007, 03:12 AM
I use Bastion of Light as my EH tanking shield....

if the stats are better, the stats are better, what else can you say.

That might be a decent example, but there is probably a much bigger difference between that shield and your other shield (probably the heroic one or something similar?) than the difference between Boots of Elusion and the OP's dps boots. Yours is probably an example of a smart trade (some avoidance for ~1.6k armor?) while the OP's is an example of a foolish one. Not to mention a shield's value is in its armor, the pure stat increase from shield to shield as you go up isn't generally as big as any other armor slot, the main upgrade when you get a new shield is the armor.

veneretio
11-22-2007, 01:04 PM
The Effective health quick and rough formula I use is simply, 100 armor = 100 health.

So I'd immediately give the nod to the Bastion of Light.

Nicki
11-22-2007, 05:56 PM
why do i feel the urge to upgrade to s2 arena shield from gruul's -.-?

that said i haven't seen a fight in ZA where i wouldnt wear high stam/armor.

Eagle maybe but the lightning does qutie a bit of damage and he can crush..

Lynx boss does insane burst if tranq shot isn't up. Tonight killed it for the second time (slacking on ZA) and i used a Nightmare seed to survive the last frenzy. I saw my 19k health go to 1.5k and went OH IHFIQWHF nightmare seed bam! Noteable if i was any other class and that happened i would have been dead <3 ardent defender!

veneretio
11-22-2007, 05:58 PM
why do i feel the urge to upgrade to s2 arena shield from gruul's -.-?
Ya I have both and use s2 shield for boss fights and gruul's for trash since it's got a shield spike.

Runejack
11-22-2007, 07:16 PM
The mixed responses here reflect the same thoughts going through my head when I consider this. I wonder if the first proponents of effective health were told their tanking equipment choices were 'foolish' too? As it stands, I'm still undecided on the 100 armour and 27? stamina benefit vs the defense loss (no big deal) and the dodge. I think it's important to keep in mind when I ask this question that I'm not saying 'Which boot should I vendor,' but rather 'Is the effective health benefit from the dps boots warrant their use in effective health fights over boots of elusion.'

As an aside, I see a ton of what I would describe as 'pally gear' being better choices for me as a warrior than more traditional ones since the patch.