View Full Version : Basketball or: How an MT survives.
10-21-2007, 11:12 PM
I don't know anyone in my guild in real life. The only way I can gauge any form of friendship via this game is by the sharing of interests and having like minded values as it pertains to gaming itself.
Raids, I suppose, are held together by this. Players will migrate along until a guild is composed of a majority of players whom are like minded. Only then can friendships form, barriers become broken, and true progression can be had.
Personally I never liked Basketball. I hated it. Maybe it's because I'm not coordinated enough...whatever I just never felt it. I remember being in Junior High and Basketball was the end all be all. I was on average athletic at that age, I wanted to fit in, hang out and meet new friends...but since I never really cared for the game I never tried to get better at it.
While playing basketball my mind would always wander. I would think about different things. I never watched Basketball on TV. I never read about it. I never did learn the difference between a forward and center - and you know, that never bothered me not knowing. I never fit in with that group either...
These past few weeks I have learned a lot about my guild. Some push more than 115%. To some this is an obsessive hobby. To others it is just something for to do - it would be better if they went and did something else with their free time, but whether it be pure addiction or not they are trapped raiding when they really don't like raiding in the first place but just can't admit this to themselves. I honeslty and truely think that people can try and be good at many things if their mind is really set on it.
I love this game. When I raid my mind is 115% focused on game play. I don't have a TV running in the background. I don't chat or call friends on my cell phone. I keep AFKs to an absolute minimum. I read strategies. I come overly prepared with food, flasks, scrolls, and any and everything that could possibly help me perform my role that tid bit better.
Sadly I can't stand my guild. In fact it is becoming that annoying sibling that you just can't wait till you move out of your house so you can get away from it. Lately I have been pugging heroics just so I don't have to associate with most in my guild.
Mind you it's not the whole guild. There is a small core (roughly 5-10) that share my interest and goals and whom I can consider an online friend. But for the rest...they are making me want to quit this game. It's bad, I am actually suffering here.
I need your advice. I am the MT of a guild that to 3/6 SSC and 1/4 Eye. I am the only warrior that ever does his homework, reads sites like this very one, and strives to be a tanking role model. My TPS generation is at least 35-40% better than any other warrior. Most of the raid has formed dependencies to me.
If I leave the raid will fail. Protections warriors are slim to none, esp geared ones. My real life moral compass almost forbids me from switching guilds on the same server...quiting this game seems to be the only solution.
10-21-2007, 11:22 PM
if you're not happy in your situation, change it. it's true in real life, and even more applicable in a game. If a guild doesn't share the same ideals/thoughts etc then it's time to move on. If possible, talk to the GL about it and see what they have to say. In the end if you're not happy, move on until you are.
10-22-2007, 07:07 AM
If I leave the raid will fail.
This is a terrible position to be in, and it's certainly one of the things I don't envy about tanks. (Getting whacked on is another.)
But you need to be a little bit selfish here, and think about your own health rather than the raid's. Because of things keep on like this they'll lose you anyway, right? To burnout, to an alt, to Arena, to any number of ways raiders occupy themselves when they don't want to raid anymore.
The first step, I'd say, is to talk to your guild leaders/officers. Let them know how you're feeling. You don't need to make it confrontational - just say a lot of what you said here. That you devote 115% to these raids, that you come prepared, and that you feel put-upon when the rest of the raid doesn't match your efforts. That you don't think this is sustainable for you much longer, and that it's making you upset and frustrated. You don't need to mention your thoughts about leaving - they should be able to read between the lines here.
Then, listen. Really listen to what your leaders/officers say in response. If it's along the lines of "you're too hardcore" then you have your marching orders. If it's along the lines of "you're right, let's make our raids a bit more professional" then it might be worth seeing how things shake out.
If I were your GL, honestly, I'd council a brief vacation (alt, pvp) while I fixed whatever the problem was. Because even if you're right, and there's a lot of appetite and room for improvement in the raiding team, it also sounds like you're tired and unhappy - and that's not going to be healthy for the raid or the guild if it keeps up.
10-22-2007, 08:38 AM
I have to agree w/ what Anaea says.
First, worry about yourself and your own goals. If they don't coincide w/ the guild, the raid, or even many of your online acquaintances, it's time you move on.
However, have a talk with someone in leadership. They may be struggling to become more hardcore themselves... then again, they may not, and they'll do what they can to tell you whatever it takes to get you to stay.
For what it's worth, my off-tank in my last guild, an officer, approached me around when Naxx was released. He felt we weren't as hardcore as we needed to be, and he wanted to move upwards (and app to Afterlife). But, he also knew me well enough to know that I also wanted to push hard, and that raid progress frustrated me, too. After talking with him, both of our goals were put in focus, and I made the changes in the guild to move us in that direction.
When I had the chance to look at how one of my most hardcore raiders saw people who weren't putting in the effort, I realized I had been accommodating the wrong people the entire time.
10-22-2007, 08:40 AM
That sounds frighteningly familiar.....
10-22-2007, 04:30 PM
i think this is one of the perils of taking the title of "Main Tank" i know i read posts on a regular basis here and on the wow-guild relations forum about tank burn-out and the number of ways it affects people. this past week was the first week i didnt go to karazhan with the guild and thankfully they did really well with the tanks they took - they one-shot everything up to prince (t4-speed run) and i dont believe they had any wipes on the way. both tanks got upgrades and i think the group as a whole felt good about things. when this weekend rolled around i did everything i could to not play warcraft. part of it was because one of the people i really enjoy playing with wasnt available to pal around with, part if it was just me being burned out.
if you are in a position to lead the other tanks then start pushing them to refine their threat cycles and min/max themselves. take a week off from tanking, see how they do with out you. i can completely relate to being annoyed and frustrated with the guild, we are struggling to make the 25man hump, and have spent the last few weeks wiping on gruul. tuesday when i wasnt in karazhan was the most fun farming ive ever had - because i wasnt in the raid.
we have had a number of people over the last few months leave for more progressed guilds. some left for easy loot, some left because they wanted to play with real life friends and some just wanted a more hardcore approach. i dont bear ill will to any of them (well maybe a little to the loot mongers) and i understand why they left. sometimes it is just the way the cards fall and we all have to deal with it. tank and healer burn out is a major issue imo, and as a gm i try and deal with it the best i can.
imho the real sad thing is that there are so many players/chars out there (not just warriors) who have enough equip to: heal more, deal more, take more.
But most arn't able to push themself to the maximum possible and thats frustrating.
Go and search your place somewhere else, if you don't want to go 25s anymore, spend time searching some good players that share your point of view and prepare for new heroic rewards and ZA - you'll have a lot more fun there and finally that is what every mmorpg should aim for, Fun (of course challange is good, but its less important imo)!
10-23-2007, 09:25 AM
The problem is more prevalent than it has been in other mmo's to date, the increase in playerbase wow has seen has been mainly a casual playerbase increase. The "hardcore" of the group were for the most part here before, and will remain after the casual players move on.
This leaves us in a precarious position, especially those like many of us on these forums in what is, or can become quickly, an unfavorable position. Being a main tank, or even one of a couple, is a very big responsibility and not just anyone can do it, it takes an attitude such as th OP has, to consistently go above and beyond, it is a natural postion of leadership, hence natural leaders generally fall into it.
The problems arise when a guild transitions from being say, as Karazhan guild, and wishes to push content to 25 mans. Or perhaps as the OP situation, when trying to push SSC/TK which beyond the first 2 or 3 bosses take some dedication, it is in the Main tanks nature to be progression minded, it is not neccessarily the guilds viewpoint on things.
Now for the precarious part of my post, when a tank who has spent his raiding career leading, being geared by and in turn molding a raid team into what it is now, only to find they don't share his ultimate goals in the game, what are you supposed to do. People say, 'Do what you want, t is just a game" but all that time and effort spent, the friendships made don't just go away, the feeling of guilt at leaving them behind to falter or even fail, it is a very tough decision, that, in my opinion should not be made lightly.
I think in the end, it probably should fall to what you feel in your heart is the right thing for you, but that sure as hell doesnt make you feel like any less of a jerk for doing it.
10-25-2007, 12:37 AM
I think this happens to every tank at least once in their career. I remember joining my first raiding guild pre-tbc as a 5th or 6th tank, progressing in BWL, then at level 70 becoming the main tank and watching the guild torn apart while giving 115% to get things going. Each time getting nothing but curator wipes, which ended in disband. When the best healer and the only other good tank left, I had no choice but to say I'd be leaving, which ended in GM disbanding the guild. Even when I write about those days, I get emotional.
I was officer at that time. Whatever I did didn't help. Recruited tank, recruited healer, gkicked some who promoted slacking, etc... The guild was...old. Yes, sometimes this is the answer. After raiding for more than a year with same char, some players just lose their motivation, and come to raids for social reasons only. They are bored when not raiding, but can't focus/pot/food/etc in raids, since they simply do not care for the progression. They just want the laugh they are have had on the teamspeak for the last year.
My advice to you is to find a young guild full of motivated players, and leave for good. This is because you can not change 40 persons.
10-25-2007, 07:31 AM
Anaea says it better than I could. If your that unhappy its time to have a "Come to Jesus"* meeting.Layout your expectations and wants. Sometimes members and guilds are not a good fit for one another and that is ok. It is also ok to find one that is a fit for you.
*Thank you Wytch for terms....
01-07-2008, 09:08 AM
Allow me a moment to share a story with you...
I was in a VERY similar situations as recent as only a couple months ago. I had become wearied by my guild's lackluster attitude towards Raiding in general. Granted, I was well aware of this when I joined the guild (at level 14, mind you), but my focus then was solely to level. The guild was a great help and I reached 70 on my main within 26 days /played (no record-breaking time, but not bad for my first). Once I hit 70, I realized exactly how little it meant to be 70 - the game had just really started, and I was once again at the bottom of a lengthy food-chain. After 70, it all came down to gear, skill, and knowledge - all of which I fell pitifully short of.
In short, I wasn't content to "just be 70". I wanted to be more - much much more.
So, I began to learn more and more about tanking - the basic of the combat table, how to manage threat and maintain TPS over a raid, and how to "appripriately" gear yourself for different battles in the same instance. I did my homework, and I've learned much more than most others in my guild cared to know.
Eventually, I became tired of being the only person who seemed keen on raiding, and I found myself in wanting. No, I didn't just want... I NEEDED to spread my wings and find others who had such passion as myself. I needed to find others to learn from. I needed a tanking role model.
So, I left my home guild in search of greener pastures, and I found it quickly. I was recruited into a much smaller, but more raid-focused guild... 68 of the 75 memebers were 70, and all fairly well-geared... even had two groups running Karazhan. "Finally", I thought. "A group of like-minded individuals who are into the same things I am!"
Things went well for the first few weeks. We raided KZ a bit, and I saw a little action in Gruuls, but I found that I was constantly being replaced for better-gear'd players (swapping out the OT tanking the Priest in HKM for a DPS class is quite common for Gruul's, apparently...). I voiced my opinion on the matter (the voice of inexperience, unfortunately), and was promptly /gkicked for it. Lesson learned - I apparently didn't know as much as I THOUGHT I knew, so once again I "hit the books" (tanking sites).
Soon after, I applied and was accepted into another large guild, but on a much more personal basis - the application process wasn't so much an inquisition, but a "what do you expect from this guild" query, and found that there were alot of points that I hadn't considered in the previous guild... it's not about the hardcore raiding or the endless search for better gear... it's about communication and being able to work with your peers, no matter the circumstances.
After a few weeks of working with them that I realized what it was I was really seeking - commraderie. I began to miss my old guild and a veil of guilt began to creep over my conscience... I had left my closest (online) friends behind.. the people that I'd laughed with in vent no matter the result of our raid focus (or lack thereof). These were the people who helped my lowly level 14 become what she is today, and I casually brushed it all aside for a chance at glory... in the end only to find that all I truly wanted was in front of me the whole time.
In the end, I rejoined my home guild, and I've taken it upon myself to become the driving force behind our Guild Raids. We're only up to Curator in Zarazhan now (and we're still having to PuG it a bit until we have more KZ attuned players available, but that's part of it, I guess...), but with my newly acquired knowledge (and a few gear upgrades), I can instead move the focus from myself to the raid as a whole and idenfity where we need to improve. As MT, that is my responsibility, since I'll be leading 90% of the raids from thsi point on.
In summary, your decision is ultimately your own, and if you think you'll be happier in a "hardcore raiding guild", then by all means give it at least a trial run to satisfy your uber-nerd urges... but don't forget that, as a Main Tank, people put you up on a pedestal... is your singular happiness worth throwing their hopes and dreams bestowed in you away?
(...and people say this is "just a game". I disagree... we are a community of players. We have emotions, feelings, hopes and fears... all must be taken into account if we are to preserve our sense of community.)
...so sayeth Radhja. :)
01-09-2008, 05:53 PM
i have been in a similar situation and leaving the guild was the best thing i ever did in WoW.
but a little background info:
I was officer in a guild that did quite ok pre-tbc. We went thru ZG aq20 mc bwl and started on aq40/ naxx when tbc came out and our mental ex-guildleader logged the GM's account and disbanded the guild.
after a couple of days we started scraping the old ppl together and formed a new and smaller guild for TBC.
Things were quite nice being able to play with ppl you like and have had so much fun with. But some things were different and some things the same. Just like the old guild the new guild also had some ppl who were not on to par with the core of the guild.
We cleared Kara downed HKM but never got gruul due to these problems. Just as the old guild the average dps was low. And we suffered from ppl that didnt care to read up on tactics or even pot up or anything.
I got tired of seeing us walking in to the same problems as 2 years earlier and decided to leave the guild (a hard decision since i was officer and rly liked some ppl in the guild) and join a newly formed guild. this is the guild i am in now with all like minded ppl, making good progress and are 3/9 BT and 4/5 MH atm.
The previous guild disbanded shortly after me leaving wich made me feel quite rotten for the friends i had in there. Though after the disband we made a channel so we could always talk to eachother.
That made a difference... you dont need to be in the same guild to still have contact with eachother. I also noticed ppl werent mad at me that i left and semi destroyed the guild. They rather respected my decision as they knew it was a hard one.
long story short. If you dont feel happy in your guild then either try to change it or leave it. Else you will wear out eventually. Besides if you wanna stay for the sake of good friends a chat channel is all you need.
01-10-2008, 01:41 PM
I can relate... I'm somewhat going through this right now.
The guild I just left was my second guild. The first was a few friends (that I've played other games with) that I leveled with, and some "friends of friends" that have been playing longer. We cleared Kara, merged with a guild, and shortly after we killed Gruul, I came to the realization that my friends (some of whom have stopped playing at this point) weren't too interested in raiding.
Realizing this, I transferred to my current server, and joined the guild I just left. It was my first "real" raiding guild, so I had to make some adjustments. I have only been playing WoW for a year now, and it's my first MMO (I have a hardcore FPS-heavy background). Eventually, I got myself into a rhythm of sorts, showing up with flasks, food, stones, whatever.
As I was playing though, and learning about the raiding game... I became more aware of some of the problems we had. The guild was a "not-quite-hardcore-not-quite-casual" guild. 50% required attendance, 4 nights/week.
There was a lot of "newsy" posts by the GL on the forum about "lets improve!", so I got the idea they really wanted to improve. The problem was, many people didn't check the forums, or they ignored the posts. There were a lot of smaller issues, but the biggest one that comes to mind is that we had a druid tank that was absolutely horrible. She did OK in 5 mans or whatever, but she had bad reaction times (adds would be on the raid, and ora would show her targeting alar, for example), couldn't generate much threat, and whenever people tried to criticize her (constructively!), it was met with attitude and dismissal.
I voiced my concerns to the GL, and officers. A few months in, I made a long PM that not only said what the problems were, but WHY they were problems, and I even gave some suggestions on how to fix them. They were thrown into a "QQ pile". Then, I realized that I used this relaxed atmosphere to my advantage early on, when I didn't come completely prepared for raids as I was "learning the ropes". So, my time there wasn't a waste, but I think I outgrew it.
When the GL caught wind that I was talking to another guild, he was a bit surprised at it. He then told me that "you wouldn't have fun", "it's all stressful", and "people are douchebags". I gave him advance notice that I was leaving (he requsted it, and I wasn't looking to screw over the guild), and finally left.
I've sent in my app to the guild I mentioned prior, and not only do I feel like I fit in better here, but I think I'm equally impressed with them as their members seem to be with me. I've MT'd all of SSC for them (one shots), was the Sanguinar tank for Kael (apparently the tank that I might be replacing was unable to break fear). Last night, I ventured into Hyjal for the first time, one shot every boss except Arch (didn't kill him), and I MT'd all except Azgalor (doomguards). The raids are run very well, and people are held accountable for their actions. They're not screaming and insulting you, but they're direct and "hey, you should be doing this". I messed up twice on archimonde (once on a pull, once because I got air bursted due to me moving out of doomfire improperly and too close to melee), and it was direct, but they told me exactly what I had to do to fix it.
Apparently my "final test" will be tanking RoS/EoS without having experienced the fight.
It's unfortunate that I'll miss out on "learning" the fights on MH/BT (they've had illidan down for 2 months I think?), but I think in the long term, I'll be happier here, and I'll learn a lot more in SWP and WotLK content.
When I played FPS's competitively, I realized that you had to be both willing and capable to win. Most people are like, "yeah, we want to win!" --theres only a few people who really don't care. My prior guild was nearly capable. We had fairly solid group that would attend most raids, but this was a minority of most raids. But, the leadership's refusal to hold people accountable ("We don't want them to think that they're bad" was one officer's quote as to why they won't), makes them unwilling to do what is necessary to win, in my book. Several of the better raiders left before I did.
It's far more "stressful" for me to wipe over and over because someone isn't doing their fundamental job (i.e. holding aggro, using mana pots), than it is to work hard on bosses, with all 25 people playing their class very well.
I haven't received a ginvite yet, but a lot of their members have approached me saying "you're pretty much in"... so here's hoping!
01-10-2008, 02:59 PM
I think everyone goes through this phase, and maybe even more so for some of the tanks. From some of my experience, tanks seem to be one of the more driven and knowledgeable people in the game. I started off at level 1 with a guild that a online friend of mine was in and joined as soon as I got wow shortly after release. I leveled, learned, gained, got to 60 and started doing more instances and eventually raiding.
It was a small guild, slowly growing. I worked on getting better blues, and helping others get better blues. We had a large number of players leave since we could never pull an MC raid together, and I wanted more so I went with them. Shortly after that the first open server transfer came along and the guild decided to go. I couldn't leave some of my new friends that I met on the server, or my wife who was still in my old guild and wouldn't transfer.
I left went to an even larger guild and started raiding MC and BWL. Then I learned of the politics of a larger guild with a bunch of people that want loot. I got tired of it, and went back to my old guild. Once back, I learned that they needed a good OT so I quickly leveled my 40ish warrior. I helped push us through ZG, and the first few bosses in AQ when it came out, then I got frustrated not from the lack or progression, but from the point that our guild leader would not let any of the officers help him at all. I was the closest thing to being the right hand man, and I made numerous suggestions and proposals that just never went anywhere.
Then I finally found a guild that not only had a good attitude, but a good schedule for me, and people that I felt at home with.
Bottom line, sometimes it takes time to find a place to fit in, but it may be out there for you. Good luck to all of you.