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View Full Version : Disarmed, Fury Warrior Concerns patch 2.3



Meia
10-17-2007, 02:31 PM
Disarmed

A compilation of Fury concerns in Patch 2.3

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To begin, let's discuss Fury raid viability.

What do we bring to a raid?

Three things, from least to most important:


One raid shout buff to our party. Either Battle Shout or Commanding Shout. 305AP or 1080HP respectively, untalented.

A plate wearing Off tank. The ability to throw on tank gear and off tank hard hitting mobs is an important utility feature that we bring to raids, just because we are specced to DPS does not mean we can ignore one of the fundamental roles a warrior can fill.

Raw unadulterated single target DPS. Without a threat cap, the only thing keeping us from unleashing a flurry of DPS is our six and ten second cooldown on bloodthirst and whirlwind.


How does patch 2.3 effect these three things we bring to a raid group?

Our shouts. Our shouts are unaffected by patch 2.3, and thus, are fine. I do think though, that with recent increases to the length of most raid buffs, making our shouts last four or five minutes is not too too much to ask for.

Off tanking. Fury warriors have already been off tanking mobs from Karazhan to Black Temple. We weren't lacking any ability to off tank as it was, and the buffs to Tactical Mastery, while nice, were unnecessary. Even with the other changes to the Fury tree and Arms tree, we likely still won't spec into tactical mastery... The losses of speccing into this talent are too great. If we wanted to tank and be good at it, we'd spec prot, not a hybrid fury build that is mediocre at tanking and DPS.

High single target DPS. This is where Fury takes its largest hit. Having already sustained DPS nerfs in the form of Flurry haste reductions and other such nerfs, the removal of Deathwish from the Fury tree is devastating.


--What did we gain from the patch?


Ten percent less threat in zerker stance, increased threat of BT and MS in defensive stance, weapon mastery, our off-hand weapon also striking an opponent when we use Whirlwind, and a new ten charge, ten second, sweeping strikes in place of deathwish.


--What did we lose from the patch?

Deathwish and any PVP fury viability we had through Imp. Intercept.


What are the implications of these changes?

At first glance it looks like a DPS boost, where at most we are coming out even in DPS. Any semi-intelligent fury warrior got more than a 3% damage boost from Deathwish through uses during weakened phases or in conjunction with recklessness or trinkets etc. The WW change was a long time coming and the way it should have worked in the first place, it is a buff, but still something that should have been in place since the inception of WoW. The sweeping strikes move is moot, most times you are single target DPS'ing on trash anyway, breaking CC with SS or with WW is out of the question and will get you yelled at in a raid quite quickly, the uses of this talent will be far and in between. Finally, the new weapon mastery talent will likely take the place of the two extra talent points we put into imp. execute, 4% less chance to dodge on specials will result in a slightly larger DPS increase on bosses than the 100 or so extra damage per execute during the last 20% of a bosses life, but we are still sacrificing something to get something... and while sacrifice isn't a bad thing, it seems counter intuitive to what blizzard has been saying of late at streamlining talents to give more options. While we have more options, they are in such places that we sacrifice too much to get them.

By speccing any points into the Prot Tree we lose Impale(and the rest of our arms talents, unacceptable), Imp. Execute(the less of the 4 evils), Points in precision, or the new weapon mastery talent. Any of those losses are too much when considering all you'd get in return from tact mastery is a mediocre threat increase for BT, which also has a terrible rage:threat ratio due to no AP in tank gear anyway.

Finally, speccing to be a better tank with more points into prot while also being Fury DPS is like shooting yourself in the foot. By taking points out of Arms tree and going three tiers deep into the prot tree you would reduce DPS by at least 5-10% while also losing deflection and imp t-clap, and you wouldn't even be able to gain all 3 points in defiance, nor could you get last stand or imp. shield block without sacrificing even more Fury talents.

Outside of switching these talents back, how can we improve the situation?

There are a few other movements and prereq removals that would at least compensate for our current losses.

Remove the enrage prereq to flurry. Enrage is a PVP talent, forcing PVE players to get enrage in order to get flurry results in wasted points. Those two talents have no place being linked.

Switch blood frenzy and Imp. Slam. Slam is a 2h specific talent, DW warriors do not get it. Giving a fury warrior the ability to buff raid melee DPS by 4% would go a long way in enticing guilds to bring fury warriors to raids. This is also in line with blizzard's thinking in that it streamlines both the fury and arms trees.

Fury pvp is in bad shape any way I look at it.


Deathwish and Bloodthirst being linked made sense, Sweeping Strikes and Bloodthirst being linked does not. The lack of fluidity to our trees due to recent changes to appease the PVP world has really made our talent trees a mess.

Simply implementing the first two ideas would allow a fury warrior to spec completely out of enrage, get 2 points in imp. execute, keep 2 points in weapon mastery, get 2 points in blood frenzy and have one left over for piercing howl or the talent of your choice. That would be a somewhat even trade for the loss of an on demand 20% damage increase for thirty seconds every three minutes.

This patch hurts fury warriors more than it helps them. The deathwish movement alone is enough to be up in arms about, but I'm also disappointed in the way we are being pigeonholed into being an off-tank, at the sacrifice of too much of our PVE DPS viability. If I wanted to off-tank or tank, I'd spec heavy protection, if I want to do PVE DPS, and put all of my talent points and gearing effort into maximizing DPS, I should be able to do that too. Unfortunately that option is not currently available to us.

Thanks for reading,
~Meia

Meia
10-17-2007, 02:55 PM
The loss of Enrage/DW stacking was not a DPS nerf for the majority of PvE instanced content...

It was an example of the many nerfs that have come our way in previous patches. Is that all you have to say about the post?

edit, upon further review, I see where the comment could be misleading, fixing it.

thugthedum
10-17-2007, 06:05 PM
threat reducer. 10% less threat for a smart fury warrior is a 10% dps increase.

am I wrong here?

I mean, sure, you preface with "Without a threat cap", but ... well, there is one.

Soulonn
10-20-2007, 11:46 AM
10% less threat isn't a 10% dps increase for smart fury warriors... it's 10% dps increase for fury warriors that have the gear (or whose tanks lack the gear) to have them threat-capped.

Lacunata
10-20-2007, 05:16 PM
-4% Dodge? just -2% we got fucked again.

Meia
10-21-2007, 12:36 AM
Yea, just came over to update the thread. Posted earlier tonight it was found that weapon mastery now only grants a -2% chance for your attacks to not be dodged, instead of the 4 that was mentioned earlier.

Impact:
The difference between improved execute and weapon mastery has now become alot smaller. -2% chance to dodge is still a way to increase the chances your yellow attacks will land on a target after the first 100ish hit is attained for fury. Outside of that, it is also a straight 2% chance to hit added across the board. However, without any parcing it is difficult to tell which would be better and could very likely depend solely on how much HP a boss mob has left at 20% health.

~meia

Krissam
10-22-2007, 12:14 AM
it's the eternal problem of warriors

damage = rage = more damage
more damage = more rage = even more damage

this is the problem for warriors

we scare exponentially, where other classes scale linearly, so as gear improves, they have to either
- Give us worse dps gear than other classes (which would make a lot of warriors switch to mail/leather)
- Nerf us constantly
- Make rage more normalized than it is atm, maybe x rage/sec while autoattacking and x rage/s for every mob attacking you
- Make it more like energy all together.

Ksala
10-22-2007, 12:48 AM
it's the eternal problem of warriors
damage = rage = more damage
more damage = more rage = even more damage

this is only true up to a point though. Once you've enough rage to heroic strike every swing and use each cooldown as it comes up then more rage does nothing as you can't spend it (until you reach execute range anyway).

I'm not sure if we really scale all that better than any other class either. I've never seen any stats on it..

Finelle
10-22-2007, 04:45 AM
But how many Fury warriors are *not* threat capped?

I'm not sure I buy the "WW change was a long overdue fix" thing. That is predicated on an opinion that WW should have been X, which we have seen zero indication for. By that logic, mages should be up in arms (which they are for different reasons) about 2.3 being nothing but nerfs (the 10% coefficient reinstatement being a "fix").

I agree that the Deathwish is a large loss due to the reasons you have posted.

Meia
10-22-2007, 09:06 AM
It use to be true that warriors scaled better than any other class, but that has gotten old in the last year or so. With rage normalization, weapon speed normalization, and improved gearing to every other class, including talents that genuinely help other classes scale amazingly, I would have to say every other class scales just as well as warriors, if not better.

Yes, my whirlwind statement was just opinion. Though I think before the forums were updated and cleared Tseric did make a statement in the warrior forums about seeing what the devs could do about making WW attack with both hands as DW... needless to say it has been an idea going around for a long while... and... seriously, it should have worked that way from the start, who tucks one arm in, while holding a sword, while they spin violently around trying to thrash at several opponents?

From what I understand, there are plenty of warriors that aren't threat capped anymore as tank gear gets better with more shield block value. Of course, there are plenty of warriors that are threat capped too, particularly on specific boss encounters. Anyway, 10% less threat doesn't equal 10% more damage in all situations, it does in some, but having our overall DPS nerfed makes that 10% more difficult to reach now as well, so it isn't as big a buff as it would have been prior to our other changes.

~meia

Daylanor
10-22-2007, 01:25 PM
The -10% threat is to bring warriors into line with the 30% dps threat every class will have in 2.3.
We are also finally getting the 10% extra damage removed with imp berserker stance talent.

I don't know what to do when we reache the point when we can't burn our rage in normal boss dps (non execute). Because if we get a new attack we don't have enough time on our combat rotation for one.
Especially since I usually help the MT with dem shout or something, just use a open gcd.

Faze
10-22-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm sure I will gladly take that 10% threat reduction and welcome it with open arms. I want to spam HS as soon as I have everything else on cd! :)

Mozman
10-22-2007, 07:00 PM
10% threat reduction is most welcome - hitting DW would almost invariably mean I'd get aggro on boss fights anyhow and no my tanks don't suck.

Finelle
10-22-2007, 07:06 PM
Another thing that may be relevant is that tanks will start to stack expertise. I for one would like a bucketload for my threat gear and some for my boss gear. Getting Trinketed Shield Slams avoided=suck.

WW hitting with two weapons means a lot more than normalization. DW scaling already beats 2H because extra AP is applied 165% to white damage before modifiers, compared to 2H's 100%. WW taking up this change incorporates this scaling disparity. In essence, 100AP will give a larger increase to DW WW as compared to 2H WW.

Bitesize
10-22-2007, 08:27 PM
While I certainly agree that the loss of DW is a nerf to Fury DPS, I wanted to mention that I've seen some wild exaggerations of the overall damage increases it provides on average.

I did some rudimentary calculations based on DPS over time intervals in an imagined boss fight, and I believe I stacked things heavily in favor of DW in doing so. I imagined a fight that took 6 minutes from 100% -> 20%, with a base DPS of 1000 for that time period and an imaginary 30 second trinket adding 100 DPS being used together with DW as soon as the fight started and again at 3 minutes. DW cools down exactly when the boss hits Execute range, and I imagined a 50% increase in base DPS from switching to Execute. I then imagined the trinket and DW stacked for the first 30 seconds of this, with Recklessness for the first 15 seconds increasing DPS by 60%. The boss dies 1 minute after Executes start, or 30 seconds after the 3rd DW.

It's a very simplistic scenario obviously, but I think it's highly unlikely that any real boss fight scenario would allow DW's performance to be any better... exceptions, perhaps, would be a fight with a longish weakened phase or one where, god knows why, you run for your life for 2.5 minutes out of every 3 and DPS the other 30 seconds.

Anyway, in my scenario, DW increased overall damage done by 5.425%.

No, that isn't 3%, but it certainly isn't the 10%+ damage increase I saw some people throwing around on the warrior forums. Additionally, most people talk about the massive benefit of holding off on using DW until it can be stacked with Executes/Recklessness if there's any danger that it won't cool down in time. While it is certainly ideal to use it then, when making such statements one should keep in mind that for every second of a fight DW spends not cooling down, the baseline DPS increase it provides is dropping below 3%, so some of the benefit of stacking it with Execute/Recklessness will be used just to bring it back up to that baseline.

Meia
10-22-2007, 08:45 PM
There are definitely some fights where the increase would be larger than that Bitesize, and definitely some fights where the increase would be smaller than that as well.

Deathwish not only serves as a DPS increase, it also serves as a threat capper, in that if you start falling behind in agro, or had to run out of combat to bandage or something of that nature, popping deathwish on a fight where you are normally agro capped and for some reason are not, allows you the extra damage needed to catch back up and ride the curve.

We not only lost its damage output, we also lost its utility, which includes its intelligent use during weakened phases and in conjunction with whatever other skills one has such as trinkets and potion cooldowns for a substantial increase in overall DPS at key times. Just like a Prot tank popping shield wall to "Seal the Deal" at the end of encounter, fury warriors popped DW at the end of an encounter to also "seal the deal"

It isn't the end of the world, but it is the loss of a major combat utility skill we had as a fury warrior, while also not really being a buff for an arms warrior since they got both DW and SS before, and will still get both DW and SS after the patch.

~meia

Bitesize
10-22-2007, 09:04 PM
I certainly would greatly prefer to see it remain in Fury; I just wanted to help put down any rampant overestimations of its value.

I also think I see why Blizzard is choosing to go this route. I think they're fully aware that with things as they are, the change isn't going to do much about how Arms warriors spec.

Therefore, it is a forward-facing change. Death Wish is a very powerful ability for PvP warriors... far more so than for PvE warriors, as it can do more to change the outcome of a shorter encounter with another player, especially if fear is a consideration. It is so powerful, they could not realistically make the Arms 41-point talent worth taking over Death Wish without that ability being overpowered. It is reasonable to imagine, though, that they could make it worth taking over Sweeping Strikes without it being overpowered. And if not the 41-point talent, the 51-point talent would be in the exact same boat if Death Wish did not move to Arms--either overpowered, or never taken.

At this point, I think they want to see how Fury does with the buffs they've given and the loss of Death Wish and then, if necessary, buff Fury a bit more. It's just a guess, but I don't feel like most Fury warriors are going to suddenly find themselves feeling incredibly gimp after the patch... I've seen too many cases where changes were declared the end of the world, only to be quickly forgotten as players get used to them and find things aren't as bad as they thought.

fastidius
10-22-2007, 09:15 PM
SS - is an AOE which will never be used using current tactics and thus a waste of points
SS - is a battlestance skill and thus not useable by default on any Fury warrior build (imp Beserker stance)
DW - already in 80% of the PVP build for warriors on our server if not all servers
SS - is more usefull in Protection tree if it has to be moved. (charge sweeping strikes stance swap sheild slam)
WW & DW - can't be overpowered as it is only used 5 times in 30 seconds for 20 % more damage and would only be used on a single target situation due to CC requirements
Arms tree - endless rage is not worth the effort thus no one specs deep arms
Fury - we lose PVP damage making even more 30/31 builds
SS - should be chanced significantly if it is to stay. make it a 2 attacks for each swin on 1 mob or a haste mod which would force us to be more threat concious after the 10% change
Many Racials will reduce DPS also so it may be a compunded nerf and thus underpower a fury warrior.

Bitesize
10-22-2007, 09:19 PM
SS is usable in Berserker Stance in 2.3, in addition to having 10 charges.

Meia
10-22-2007, 09:57 PM
Also only lasts 10 seconds, which isn't a problem for a fury warrior. An arms warrior is capable of using all 10 charges, and will benefit from it being usable in zerker stance.

Faze
10-23-2007, 02:01 AM
Any fury warriors that have tested how much of a nurf/buff we have gotten? Props for all the theoricrafting, but sometimes reality differs from the math.

Meia
10-23-2007, 08:57 AM
I've done a bit of ZA on my warrior as Fury. I can't say I raid that way as much as I'd like to, but I didn't notice a buff or a nerf to overall DPS. I still pulled aggro on trash.

The Bear boss was where I had my biggest problems. I was able to DPS my heart out, next to another rogue, not quite as well geared as I was. I got behind in DPS at a point, and really ramped it up with str pots and trinkets and stuff, but never really had the Umph to bring me back on par with tanks that were taunt catapulting their threat above the rest of the raid.

The rogue and I were soundly over everyone else's DPS, but he still beat me out, I'm pretty confident with deathwish I'd have been able to ride the aggro curve alot more steadily than I did in that fight, and as it stands I wasn't as close to the MT in threat as I'd have liked to have been, which is a big nono for fury warriors. On the bright side, maybe I won't die quite as often.

Some things to account for, we hadn't done bear boss very many times at all, so no one was really comfortable with the fight. I did have salvation. I may not have had the perfect fury talent spec, but it wasn't bad, still a 17/44.

Maybe I'll do some testing on the invincible guys today in blasted lands, a 3 minute test with the same gear popping trinkets and cooldowns. I won't go so far as to count how many individual bloodthirsts and whatnot I do, but I'm pretty consistent with my damage rotations so it should be fairly accurate. (Maybe I will keep track, shouldn't be too hard with SW stats)

We'll see.

Finelle
10-23-2007, 10:32 AM
Taunt catapulting? Could you explain that?

Meia
10-23-2007, 10:41 AM
We use a system in normal raiding situations where instead of having an OT just sit around waiting to do his job, we'll have both our tanks tanking on mobs that can be taunted.

One tank starts the battle with a shield slam, the other taunts off that tank and shield slams, then the first tank taunts off that tank and shield slams, so on and so forth. Doing this, you cut the cooldown of shield slam in almost half, not to mention whatever other threat you generate while the other tank is waiting to taunt. It skyrockets threat, really fun to be a part of doing it as well.

The bear boss works similarly, though you don't taunt as often.

Meia
10-24-2007, 01:23 PM
Still planning on doing the tests... instead of speccing fury last night for the raid, we didn't have the people, and I ended up speccing prot to tank a KZ... a little counter-productive.

I'll try to start on the test server tests when I get a chance.

fastidius
10-25-2007, 03:33 PM
i have been on PTR for about 10 hours now. Ran ZA & Kara got 1 boss dead and found 3 bugs and such in our runs but all in all heres my outcome regarding DPS....


Without Deathwish on live i pull between 390 & 415 DPS on Attumen in Kara (no Bleed bonus)

With Deathwish that pumped up to 445 with trinket use

Without Deathwish on Test with similar crit rate (had to use sharpening stones to get the last few percent from my normal raid rating) - 428 was the number.

I have also spent a bit of time playing with trash also to try and verify a better amount of swings/damage etc..

My conclusion here is that WW with slow slow will be a nearly equal trade for Deathwish on single fights.

Trash hasn't really changed much showing that expertise has pretty much had no effect over my non axe dps.

With dual axes however (lesser quality) I still managed to keep my dps above 420 which although a very rough test makes me think that i want the racial back far more than i thought.

I'd guess that my racial would have added 20-30 DPS where as without it i maintain my current DPS with a slight increase (wasn't threat capped at all but that i think is more because devastate is NICE!!)

having said all this I would still say sweeping strikes is a waste of a point unless you can get the MT to pull 2 mobs away from CC and still tank them. ie useless using most tactics

Faze
10-26-2007, 01:54 AM
Thanks for the information! :)

I must say that SS will be sweet in Hyjal though! I usually am right after our mages and warlocks, I think I can catch up with he warlocks after the patch, who knows? :p
I hope so atleast, cause I'm one of the top DPSers when it comes to Hyjal and even more AE dps will be fun :)