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Horacio
10-17-2007, 08:33 AM
A constant theme to my Wow career has been frustration. For the most part, I feel like I am a very good tank and a reasonably competent raid leader though of late, I have had a few outbursts that are signs of the wear and tear the raid leader role takes on me.

Granted, no one puts a gun to my head and makes me do it and the pressure and stress are far more tied to my reactions to situations than anything else. How you deal with things...you can't really say its because of this or that or this person/that person....its how you deal with it that causes you stress.

And recently...no, probably since I started leading raids over a year ago...its gotten pretty rough.

I melted down Monday night for the second week in a row. I lead a Karahzan group and we have cleared the instance and are at the point of farming gear and getting ready for Zul Aman. I actually play my druid in this group for several reasons including us having a very good prot warrior and good prot paladin MT/OT combo. One of our healers has drifted away from the game and we had to replace her. It fit. I was invited to another Karahzan group to play with some other friends on either character but because the groups set up the way they did, I thought it was better to move the tank over there.

I guess to an extent, I feel like we have stagnated somewhat. We've been doing it long enough that the odd items that never seem to drop are magnified. Everyone wants to bring alts but "for this boss but not that boss" and sorting out who should get what is a pain in the ass. For example, we had a friend sub in for a missing player on his mage alt (main is a hunter) and he rolled against regular member's ALTS for loot. I don't see a problem with this but other's did.

When that one piece drops, like tier 4 helm "of the champion" its like a pack of starving dogs fighting over a slice of bolony.

Our MT missed Monday. We killed Prince and Netherspite and headed back to Nightbane....and couldn't kill him. I made a few mistakes as a healer, leaving HoT's up, healing too much during the air phase and getting owned by skeletons, etc. The sub tank was very undergeared and while we were able to keep him up, people standing in the charred earth didn't get as many heals. The tank broke the fears well but even all HoT's stacked wasn't enough to keep him alive while the healers were feared. It was a perfect storm of crap that kept us from killing him. It was frustrating after farming him every week but we still had Maiden and Attumen up and an hour left in the raid so what the hell, eh?

Then the "I'm tired" "where do we go?" "I need to repair" started and someone raised thier voice and someone else raised thier voice and everyone was confused and I was getting bombed with /tells from inside and outside the raid and I...had...enough....I called the raid, "I'm sick of this shit, go home and come back next week"

My 25 man raid runs 2 nights a week. We are working on both Magtheridon and the Lurker Below. With a casual guild containing casual players we often have 15-20 players busting thier ass and a few subs or a few "I wanna raid too!" people and we try to get by. Last week, I added a mage played by a 15 year old emo kid. He begged, he wanted to raid, he put it out that he was looking for a group. I thought better of it but I took him. He lasted 2 raids in which his competition for DPS was me....the main tank and our shitty warlock who I also broke off an ultimatum pm too (IE, get your DPS up or I will replace you) He went to a more progressed guild with a spot on thier raid team. WTF is that? And it happens all the time. He stinks, is unreliable, is an emo little punk. Oh well, back to recruiting.

My dad just got back from New Mexico where he was elk hunting. He got a monster. Our company put up for 2 people to go this week coming up. It could have been me....I said no....why? I have raids to run. I can't very well beat on people for not showing up and then go on vacation, can I? So I passed a once in a lifetime (or twice..I went 15 years ago with my dad) opportunity. WTF was I thinking? Its too late, we're sending a couple of emplyees. And there's more to it like not wanting to leave my family for a week.

So, I suppose its pretty obvious, I need a break and to prioritize my life a little better. I could maybe see if I was seeing content and playing at a high level but I and some of the folks who I play with leave it all out there, play thier guts out and it never happens the way we expect it to. Someone always dies to the spout, someone always misses a cube click, someone always finds some new, ingenious way to die at the wrong time and the last couple healers keep me up and I tank my guts out but it doesn't matter.

ARG.

I browsed the Guild Recruitment forum the other day. Nothing appeals to me and I can't leave. I made too many promises to too many people that I wouldn't. To myself, to my wife who got the crap end of the deal when we transferred the last time.

Maybe, just maybe things will turn around soon. Who knows?

Silentslayer
10-17-2007, 09:10 AM
Keep on trucking horacio things will get better I am sure of it.

vorp
10-17-2007, 10:15 AM
Last week, I added a mage played by a 15 year old emo kid. He begged, he wanted to raid, he put it out that he was looking for a group. I thought better of it but I took him. He lasted 2 raids in which his competition for DPS was me....the main tank and our shitty warlock who I also broke off an ultimatum pm too (IE, get your DPS up or I will replace you) He went to a more progressed guild with a spot on thier raid team. WTF is that? And it happens all the time. He stinks, is unreliable, is an emo little punk. Oh well, back to recruiting.


I know how you feel. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm glad our Kara raidgroup has 10 great people, none of which are under the age of 19. Maturity goes a long way when dealing with people in reality and ingame. Mature people are much easier to manage as an officer and a raidleader. Mature people understand goals, and can learn how to adapt when they mess up. I even had to talk to my GM about his frustrations and its effect on the morale of the raid. He apologized, and next time i'm sure it will be different. I don't have time for whiners, complainers, crybabies, and ramblers. We don't want a play-by-play of your WoW time, thank you very much.

Maybe I need to unplug too. Last night I had a dream that I was trying to tank Attumen, but my action bar was the one from my mage. Somehow I managed to hold aggro. Thank god I'm married already.:rolleyes:

Fubar
10-17-2007, 12:50 PM
Hey Horatio, I think you need to take a break. I think your GM (assuming you are not the GM) has to look at the structure and the depth that the raid leader ranks have when it comes to succession planning.

I'm still pretty new at this raid leader stuff, but I'll give you my perspective since I've spent all of my career in a corporate enviornment. This is the same advice that I give my GM/raid leader:

THE Raid Leader has to be forward looking. I told my raid leader that he should not be worried about being a Raid Leader in Kara, he's done that. He should be prepping for the fights that come and evaluating the wowwebstats of the players who going to be in those fights. He should be reading and watching how others execute tactics for the bosses we are working on or headed to in the very near future.

I told him that he has to appoint new assistant raid leaders to manage Kara or farmed raids (we just cleared Kara last week). These people will start getting experience leading the kara experience for our new members, or those who want to continue seeking their individual pieces from bosses. Thus, they have to deal with the pain in the ass of dynamic substitutions and figuring out what classes work in what cases. It is good experience for them and it adds a whole lot of depth to the guild's capability, in case you do someday choose to go on your elk hunt.


A couple of things that I am sure to do when it comes to being a assistant or farmed instance raid leader: I always use the same exact marking convention and kill order that the raid leader did when he taught me. Standard protocol will hopefully make it easier as we move into the 25 person raids. Repetition makes things easier for everybody.

I appoint one of our smart healers as the person who watches buff timers and assigns buffs in cases where we have multiple paladins etc. This person also is in charge of blessing of protection/cleanse etc. rotations and tank assignments. This is my first and only toon, so I don't know the classes well enough at times.

If someone wants to rotate in or out of the raid, they have to be on vent listening to us. I am not going to fetch them, they have to be right outside of the door, repaired and ready, since I too have the ... "I want to be in for this boss and not that boss crap."

"Save the drama for your mama," if anyone starts to QQ, or shows up totally unprepared, I politely whisper them and ask if they would consider leaving the raid for now and coming back at another time. I don't want to embarrass them, I want them to save face, but learn from the experience.

Sure, one day, I'd like to attend Kara as just a participant again. I was certainly a much better tank, not getting nearly as many crushing blows delivered to me, because I am not watching for Garrottes or anouncing who has holy fires.


I think if you had an assistant to manage the Kara farmed raids, your life may get a little easier. You can focus on Mags and Lurker, or even take a night off with your family. You can attend on your alt (hate that.. like tanking for the boss when my RL attends on his alt) and listen in as instructions or explanations are given. My RL when he attends, is super about not correcting me over vent unless I am headed to one huge goat rope. He will just whisper me or talk to me on vent after the raid.

Just a thought....

Fubs

Horacio
10-17-2007, 12:56 PM
I have been told the same thing several times. I attempt to delegate but in some ways, no one wants it. I went away for one weekend and missed 2 Karahzan raids and the group fell apart. Where we were usually killing Prince and 2-3 optional bosses per week, they couldn't get past Aran without me there. Tell, how much difference does the tank make on Aran? Seriously?

But that's it, I am taking some time off and going on a hunting trip. Maybe they will get thier crap together while I'm gone, who knows?

Fubar
10-17-2007, 01:20 PM
:D good luck to you Bro! I missed opening archery season here in Texas, so I too know the feeling!

fubs

oh and before I self-elected myself by suggesting what I did to my GL/RL, no one wanted to do his job either. Also, we fell apart when he wasn't there.. but we picked it back up in time. Hopefully, that works for you too.

Penlowe
10-17-2007, 02:11 PM
(I'm The Wife)
Raid Leaders are not a rank in our guild, it's an 'anyone who can get a group together gets to be a RL' thing, party because it's monsterously large. So basicly if you want to raid bad enough, but there's no teams with slots open for you, you can make your own group or announce your availability to sub. This has it's ups and downs, but overall it's fairly workable.

That said, there are people in the guild that others expect to be leading raids and clambor to get on their teams. Horacio is one of these.

Newname
10-17-2007, 02:31 PM
I'm in a similar mode myself. To combat this I have been trying to keep enough warriors whom can MT/OT/DPS as needed for 25 mans plus one extra. My thinking is that this extra warrior will be as geared as us and rotated. For example, if we have 4 warriors each warrior will be on 3 weeks and off 1 week. This also serves as redundancy incase of player emergencies and what nots that cause absences.

Problem is finding warriors who will agree to said rotation program. Another issue is I always let the OTs know they can MT for any boss for experience - for example, the last two lurker kills I've asked if anyone wants to try MTing it - sadly no takers.

Bottom line being a MT is the most stressfull job in WoW. It is a selfless role - all the dkp you amass goes towards tanking gear...whilst others get to spend DKP on goodies that allow them to function well outside instancing. This compounded with the fact the MT must do so much research and when you see that others are not putting in as much effort as yourself it starts to get to you. It all adds up.

I need a vaction too. But bottom line no other warrior tank knows how to keep up high TPS like I do. I try to teach them and it seems they are unwilling to learn. sigh

Horacio
10-17-2007, 03:01 PM
:D good luck to you Bro! I missed opening archery season here in Texas, so I too know the feeling!

fubs

oh and before I self-elected myself by suggesting what I did to my GL/RL, no one wanted to do his job either. Also, we fell apart when he wasn't there.. but we picked it back up in time. Hopefully, that works for you too.

I am in Texas too, whereabouts do you hunt? I have sadly allowed Wow to cut into my hunting time the past few seasons to the extent, I haven't gone in 2 years. I screwed around with archery for a while and got a couple looks but never a kill with a bow.

We have a couple of places around these parts (near San Antonio)

Tristessa
10-17-2007, 07:16 PM
Mate, you really do need that break, and anyone who says "no, you can't!" is a tool. Organizing, leading and handling the strategy of a raid is not easy and can be stressful.

My g/f, being the main healer in our small family guild have been giving me hell or unnecessarily, uninformed advice regarding the organization, leading, and whateverthehellitisialreadythoughtof. So I let her organize the damned raid this week.

We'll see how it goes. I doubt she'll do as well as me. :D

Anyway, when playing is starting to feel like work, then go take a break. No other remedies for it. =S

Tristessa
10-17-2007, 08:10 PM
Lol.

I must admit that I'm taking for granted the fact that she's actually willing to play an MMORPG with me, and I admit that I sound very callous, uncaring, childish, or all of those about this.

It's simply a fact that my organization > hers at this point. I researched and read everything I can find about starting a raid, organizing joint guild runs, clearing trash, boss encounters, checking availabilities, contingency plans--all from various resources. When I have a question, I click on the FAQ page first before posting in the forums, figuratively speaking.

Unlike me, there is no effort on her part to research anything. Would you take advice about downing Gruul from someone who's never been part of a raid that has already done it, as an example?

Still, you do have a point, Joana. We'll see what happens. =p

Tristessa
10-17-2007, 08:40 PM
I don't deny that and I will be the first person to breathe a sigh of relief, since that would make any future runs easier for everyone involved. And note that she doesn't want to actually lead the raid. She wants to organize the raid (i.e. raid invites).

Anything I should know seeing that you feel so strongly on this subject? I didn't intend this to be a "whose life sucks more" contest, a thread hijack or the start of a flame war. =S

Razmo
10-18-2007, 03:58 AM
Raiding is 25% skill, 25% preparation, and 50% sheer stubborness.

Well said.

Joana is right, drop the farming. And your GM should help you more aswell.And indeed take the break. My guild couldn't progress much without me tanking. When I took a day off to spent time with my gf they were angry. Thats when I trained our ot to be a good mt (kinda forced him) this might work out for you aswell. Let other ppl do the dirty work sometimes. You can't do it alone, and ofc they won't progress much @ start but things will work out fine. Don't be afraid to let things go. RL is more importand :D.

Horacio
10-18-2007, 06:24 AM
I am working on dropping Gruul in two weeks and there is plenty of howling and complaining about it but such is life.

Karahzan is much less about raid time and more about having fun which is why it frustrates me and my melting down like I did a problem. We couldn't add days to the schedule for more 25 man content because there are enough players there that simply can't raid anymore than they do. Casual guild. Karahzan is something to do in the meantime and right now, its just a chance to get a few mre pieces of loot and hold that time slot open for ZA.

Indeed, I have considered many different things regarding focusing on new content and leaving farm content behind but with the guild I am in, it goes with the territory, people want to get thier loot and while many of them will pass to their friends and be "generous" they expect to get it sometime in the future. This is not a guild build for progression. My personal hell is being a player interested in progression but who has made strong friendships with people who are less so. Eh, I can handle that but it drives me to needing to vent sometimes.

But we made serious progress on Magtheridon last night. We got through 4 rounds of clicks before fumbling it but it was the first time we were able to consistantly get through the first phase. Going back tonight, we ought to get that much closer, maybe even beat him.

So anyway, I feel better for venting and better for last night's raid.

Belak
10-18-2007, 06:52 AM
Horacio,

REALLY glad to hear you made progress last night on Mags. Sounds like you're right where my guild was when we talked last week. (Survived several rounds of clicks w/o anybody screwing up. Yay!)

Unfortunately, that's exactly where we still are.

Our 25 man raid nights are Tuesday and Thursday for new stuff an Sunday for Gruul and misc. clean up of 10-mans. Last Thursday we couldn't seem to get anything right, people afked at inopportune times, and then about 15 minutes before the respawns, my cable went out and didn't come back (and I'm the MT). They tried one more time and called it.

Tuesday we get ready to form the raid... and 15 level 70s show up. By start time +30 min we were up to 20 raiders and we called it in disgust.

Guess we need to recruit more raiders AGAIN. *sigh* Just seems like people are more interested in farm content than progresion a lot of times. Sad really.

Anyway, hang in there and definitely take a much-needed break. You'll feel better and the guild will learn to appreciate you more.

Ciderhelm
10-18-2007, 07:24 AM
Horacio,

Trust your instincts. You want to be a successful raid leader. You want to move on, and you want your guild to move on with you.

So I'm going to put this in no uncertain terms: the Membership and the Guild are two separate entities. The Membership are the individual players who have different needs, different goals, and different skill levels than each other. The Guild is the machine that the Membership chooses to be a part of.

If you are going to be Raid Leader, your loyalty to the Guild is what will move the Membership forward; start making every decision while looking at it from the viewpoint of what will help the Guild. You are already thinking that way -- the fact that you are stressed and having a difficult time is a direct representation of your passion for the progress of the raid.


Moving this out of the abstract, I'm going to present you and Penlowe with what you are realistically looking at. I envy you that you two can do this together. ;)

1) Are your own needs being met, or are you sacrificing your own needs for players who do not share your goals?

I'll answer this for you. No, your own needs and goals are not being met.


2) How close are the friends you are playing with? Real life? Or, long-time internet friends? Do you feel that they are irreplaceable?

For me, I base my internet friendships on who shares my own goals, since there is very little else to base a real friendship on. This is no different than real life, where you would find your friends are co-workers, or people who share a sporting interest, or a musical interest.


3) Would you be willing to make hard decisions at the expense of these friendships?

This is a question you need to face before you decide what you are doing with certainty. I decided two years ago that no friendship would warrant a change in my own values.

In terms of guild and raid management, this meant that I made decisions that were deeply hurtful to some people. I /gremoved my brother-in-law, demoted a good Marine friend (while he was deployed, no less), and denied one of my co-workers from applying to my guild.

My brother-in-law was playing at the expense of his early marriage with my sister, and took stress out on our other healers -- he was an outstanding Priest. My Marine friend's wife was using his account to access our officer forums and relay private discussions on player performance to members -- he was an outstanding Warrior. My co-worker had his own thoughts on loot and how it wasn't fair to casual players.

It won't always come down to player performance, but the hardest decisions never have to do with performance. Performance issues are resolved by clearly laying out damage and healing meters on your guild forums after each raid and having discussions on strengths and weaknesses involved with each fight. Genuinely poor players will either feel ashamed and step out or they will step it up a notch and perform excellently.

If you create a culture of excellence, you will develop excellent players.


Having a good time -- having fun -- is even easier among raiders who care about each other, about their guild, and about doing a good job. People who can respect each other's hard work make the most enjoyable people to raid with. Raiding groups that make progress are happy raiding groups. :)

Matthew
10-18-2007, 07:25 AM
I got frustrated, but more along the lines of "I am missing out on life by playing this game so much" - and it was true.

I quit for 2-3 weeks, and I almost wish I still didn't play. Luckily now, I just causually get on when I have downtime in the evenings. Take a break man. Give yourself a few weeks to really think about what is important to you in life.

Stressing out in a virtual world that is intended to be enjoyed, is not something you should feel obligated to do.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2007, 07:44 AM
Go get that fat pit lord Horacio/Penlowe! Just take a break now and then. Last week we couldn't get our crap together for a few encounters in Kara and it caused us not to be able to down illhoof, then on monday when we were supposed to spend 30 minutes to walk in, kill illhoof, and walk out, I couldn't get members. The "selfless" team that I had who were willing to "help" others despite not needing loot, wouldn't show up now. They had to run heroics, they didn't need any drops, etc etc. But to me its not about the loot so much, its about the fact that we full clear kara week to week, and leaving it uncleared spelled something bad for me, uncertain doom to my late night kara.

Well along comes Tuesday, they have a great 25 man night downing lurker, hydross, leo, and tidewalker, leaving only karathress and vashj in ssc. I give everyone plenty of time to go out, grab food, whatever, and i start sending invites for late night karazhan. I get 1 rogue, and another rogue/druid. thats it. My usual priest is off doing heroics. My usual druid is off doing his own thang, usual fury warrior is down but only after i get the 9/10 together. 1 hour i spend sending tells, spamming guild chat, and looking for friends. nothing. No kara this week on tuesday. So no big, this was supposed to be a small time thing, so I ask simply to have 1 person get on the PTR with me to do some testing. Not a damned soul, I try to call on my favors, people who i recently helped grind 6+ Black morass runs to get exalted, people I've selflessly stayed awake till 5am server when i had work the next day. No one willing to help. I'm beginning to think people use me when they need me, pretend to be selfless when in fact they just want 1 piece of loot (the druid won't come now because he gave up on collecting a feral set), and just kick me to the curb when they don't see some personal gain from me.

Sorry to rant in your thread Horacio, I just needed to vent too. Good to see things are looking up for you, but you're not alone in these struggles. I think joana and Cider put it best in their posts. These are tried and true vets, take their advice to the heart and you should be successful as they are.

nethervoid
10-18-2007, 07:55 AM
Cut your raiding in half. That will go a long way to culling the problem. Sounds like you took on way too much.

You need to think more about yourself and less about others. There's a middle ground that must be kept.

Fubar
10-18-2007, 08:29 AM
Joana,

In our case, we are just trying to rebuild our guild. 15 of us switched servers to play in our own time zone and to escape the lamentations of people wanting be geared but not wanting to put in the time. At this time, we don't have a mage to tank the mage in Gruuls layer, and probably lack AOE/group healers. So in the meantime, we PuG heroics in hopes that we find a good player willing to take a chance on a new guild, and keep recruiting to rebuild.

Horacio: I just moved to Tx 2 years ago, I've only hunted at bowhunters paradise for hogs and exotics, in Del Rio. Have a couple of babies on the way so I never really looked for a lease. Also, have a friend with 100 acres 1.5 hours North of Austin (where I am) with hogs and deer, but I can't get the time to take to really do my homework on the area and figure out how to hunt Texas style.

Good Luck!

Fubs

Horacio
10-18-2007, 08:34 AM
We have a ranch(873 acres) just west of SA with more hogs than you can shake a stick at and some nice hill country deer. We have a lease near Hondo (3K acres) that we've hunted for 20 years now and some nice bucks have come off of there but 2 years ago they sold off part of it or the family split it up and the pasture I hunted was not available anymore :( I have 2 small kids and started playing Wow, bought a new house ...got off track a little and haven't been hunting much in a while.

Fubar
10-18-2007, 08:40 AM
Wow! you are truly blessed, 2 little ones and a new house. The hunting opportunity is a perk too :).

Night hunting hogs is something that I picked up here in Tx.. what a thrill. Talking about being puckered up as a huge boar is crunching away at corn 8 yards away from you! I've arrowed my share of deer over the years all from treestands on the east coast. I don't really like to shoot in the confines of a groundblind. Like you wow has taken over, but it's good, now is my time to be at home.

Fubs

Ceravantes
10-19-2007, 08:16 AM
Joana is exactly right here, the way to go about things is to possibly offer an off night farm raid, if people are really interested in getting that other item they will show up, but it wont cut into your progression time.

Flintridge
10-19-2007, 01:48 PM
/jealous of horacio's hunting grounds

Anyhow im on H's kara group, and i understand the frustration. I think there has been a breakdown in the enthusiasim/concentration we first had when we started clearing the instance. Now im not vocal at all during raids when we are performing like crap, which for some reason happens the same time every night right after aran we might as well be a bunch a monkeys humpin a football. I don't know why ti always seems to fall apart at this point. To be honest when we get to prince i get a sick feeling in my stomach and say a little prayer hoping the infernals drop in good spot and we pwn prince. The trend lately has been we end the raid staring at the prince's feet from the ground. I could care less about the loot tbh im just there to have some fun with the group and drink a few beers before the week starts. So yea, take time off imo H this week has been nice wiht no raiding even though not under the best of circumstances.

As far as your 25man, heh could be worse could be in mine!

Horacio
10-19-2007, 02:08 PM
Yeah, we're taking this weekend off and I think it will help everyone take a deep breath and refocus. Get some afk time, maybe run a few heroics and such. I hope everything turns out Flint, I never heard exactly what happened. FYI, neither group killed Mags this week. Rough week all around. We had some problems with our Vent server and lag, actually cost us a few bad attempts on him but we had enough where it wasn't an issue. Still, we did get a little closer (58%) so its not so bad as all of that.

Ruminator
10-19-2007, 02:21 PM
IMO, if it's not *FUN* for *YOU* anymore, you shouldn't be doing it.

I led raids in EQ for a long, long time (read: 1000+ raids) until a few rotten apples spoiled the environment, and it stopped being fun for me. I took it easy for a couple of weeks to evaluate how I really felt about the situation, and look at all the options, talked it over with the guild leader, and we made the decision to pass the torches and move on to something else (it was clear that he wasn't going to remove these folks or give them any more than a light tap on the hands, and these guys/gals were causing a huge crapstorm every single raid). I haven't doubted the decision or remotely had the urge to login since.

I think the key to it is don't make a big decision when you're emotional. Take some time to cool off, and ask yourself if you really have cooled off. Once you're positive, you can look at it from the viewpoint of "what is the right thing for me?" (it's a game, not a life obligation) It's time to be selfish here; if you're not happy doing what you're doing, you aren't going to do the great job for the folks that you're leading - you won't be the great leader they deserve to have. Can you still be that leader? If the answer is no, then you already know what to do.

If you can see a path through the fog, figure out a way to make it happen. But don't ever chase a solution which you know will never happen.

As my coach used to always tell me "Don't drive angry."

Horacio
10-19-2007, 02:23 PM
LoL....last pull last night:

ready check - "Everyone is ready"

H: Ok (paladin) start the countdown...../bloodrage

random healer : WAIT! The tank isn't at the 4th platform!

Druid tank: I needed a healthstone!

H: ok, countdown, gogo! (while my rage bar slowly dwindles....)

H: "My taunt has been resisted by <Hellfire Channeler> "Not enough rage" oh shit.....

I ran her down and intercepted into her and got her back but the vent lag problems caused several events like that.

Tanner
10-26-2007, 07:54 AM
Keep plugging away at it H, you guys will get it eventually...

Once you get past the channeler's it's more of a listen up and don't be stupid fight.

And I've been to the point of blowing up at our guild a few times too...so I feel your pain.

And we're not dropping Gruul from the roster until that damn shield drops....and since it's an easy filler if we don't have much time left in the night at this point.

If you're looking for another fairly simple fight, head over to Solarian..... it's essentially Geddon 2.0 with a few changes.

GL with the raiding.

Tanner

Tanner
10-26-2007, 09:18 PM
Looks like I missed it on our realm's raid progress page... they got him down! Grats and GL in SSC and TKE :)

Horacio
10-27-2007, 06:58 AM
Until yesterday, we ran two concurrent 25-man raids per week. The first has killed Magtheridon 3-4 times. I led the second one and we had Mags at 59&#37; and Lurker at 38% but couldn't close the deal on either. we would begin to grasp the basics of the fight and then retrain new people of cover attendance holes. That much dilution of talent, skill, motivation, etc wasn't worth a damn for progression so, and why I speak in the past tense, I am now unguilded.

Heh, so no more meltdowns.

Oda
10-27-2007, 09:50 AM
Grats and condolences, sir.

Clifford
10-27-2007, 12:52 PM
I deal with much of this in a casual raiding guild (as a guild leader and raid leader).

Striking a balance between farming Kara/Gruul and progression is my single biggest challenge at the moment.


Raiding is 25% skill, 25% preparation, and 50% sheer stubborness.
Too true

jassamoris
10-28-2007, 12:51 AM
Well, to all here concerned with "zzzz Kara or omgwtf Hydross" decisions : in my experience, progress is like crack when it comes to people showing up and performing. We're working on Kael'thas at the moment, and when we hit certain "breakthrough" points (Getting p2 set up solid, figuring out a solid strategy for picking up his four advisors in p3) the morale, and to a certain extent, the performance, of the raid rises considerably, which is amazing when, in our current schedule, we expect to stare down KT for 2 straight days a week if we clear SSC and TK as we have been.

We're at a rather unforgiving point in terms of progress (ie, sorry, but ssc is clear and tk is -almost- clear, there's not much else we can do lol), but this advice applies to everyone. That one mage who moans about his continuum blade getting his gruul sword is not as good for the raid, guild, or even that mage, as people noticably salivating and talking about the server progress page while the master looter inspect's Vashj's dead body, building up suspense as everyone wonders what treasures lie there now, and what ones lie ahead farther down the road. That is, if you can still hear after the vent-shattering cries (or yarrrs in <GG>'s case) of triumph.

PS
Oh, and Horacio, sorry to hear about your "break" with TBP. No offense, but i dealt with a fair amount of people in that guild that made me question how some of them managed to dress themselves in the morning (not downing on all TBP, if i remember correctly our unnofficial hunter class leader Jarik is a TBP alum). It's probably some of these people that caused you a bit of strife when it comes to raid leading. I know how bad it sucks to have simpletons mess up fights that stress execution like Mag does. It's sad to see that they've lost someone as genuinely interested in their character and class' development and intracacies as you. Oh, and i want that Thunderfury. gimme nao!

Horacio
10-28-2007, 06:44 AM
Whether or not TBP was full of capable players or not, for the most part they are nice people and while I have finally broken away (and for good this time) because I want to concentrate on content progression and play at a higher level, they don't deserve to have shots taken at them. Oh, I have gotten loose on rants about my former guild mates but I have walked a mile in those shoes, so to speak. Even so, in retrospect that's probably not the best thing I could do with my time anyhow.

At any rate, I'm turning the page and I will find a new home all in good time.

Otopa
12-07-2007, 05:18 AM
Pushing people forward is a good thing, I tell you as a noobster. Ex-noobster :cool: In my current guild on my first Kara run I was OT and GM MT, on my second run I was MT and him OT, on my third run I MT/RL with recruit prot pala OTing. I must say I was pretty nervious and felt very insecure, but then I said to myself "girl, you've lead billion-gazillion 5men instances, Kara team is just a bit bigger", so I put myself together and we did it. Of course it wasnt entirely smooth run, yet it was done and I was very proud of myself. In a month I passed my leadership to even newer druid, who in turn passed it to prot pala, and as a result we have a pool of 4-6 people capable of leading Kara (which is optional raid in our guild now - for badge farmage, off-spec gear and whatnot). Same repeats with SSC/TK/HY - once we safely beat the boss, MT position is given to another tank, and it proves very beneficial on the long run - we progress steadily and every tank gets a chance to egoboost against big ugly things.