PDA

View Full Version : Recruiting Tanks - How picky are you?



Satrina
10-14-2007, 10:27 PM
I tend to be the first line of screening on tank applicants to our guild. I generally get them to post up an application, then throw four questions at them in their application post. Typical ones:

- Do you know what effective health is? If yes, give a short summary.
- What sort of cycle would you use to generate threat, assuming you need to use Shield Block?
- 490 defense makes you immune to crushing blows?
- 25% block chance is required?
- How can you become immune to crushing blows?
- Is it useful to build Defense past 490?
- Devastate and Sunder Armour: Compare and contrast
- Is it a good idea to stack a lot of avoidance in your gear? Why or why not?

Usually something about their spec:
- Something strange: Why Improved Demo Shout over Improved Thunderclap?
- Checking knowledge: Why Improved Heroic Strike over Improved Sunder?

And finally:
- What would your two ideal next upgrades be (anything from Gruul to SSC)

I figure that those questions can gauge the prospect's knowledge of basic mechanics and theory pretty well. Most applicants can answer 50-75%. A few answer them all. Some just don't know and go away. Some just don't know and come back in an hour or so with 75% or more of the answers. I had an in-game interview experience tonight with a warrior who knew none of it. Zero.

Well, sort of. I asked him about threat, so he rattled off the normal threat cycle ("Sunder*5 then devastate, shield slam/revenge when available, heroic strike at the end"). When I asked him why he used that - "it's what I was told to do".

I asked him about effective health, and he had no clue. So I asked why he has +12 stamina gems in all sockets - "it's what I was told to do".

I asked him what his average threat generation on a boss was - "1000-1200" (with a King's Defender)

After winding my way though this all, the guy was at the end throwing out guesses to answer "can you see anything wrong with four dodges in a row on a boss?" (my favourite: "it makes you more likely to take a crushing blow?")

So I finally tell the guy that no, we will not pursue his application. He gets all offended and comes out with this:

no 1 from the top 5 guilds would worry about you knowing this shit

Yeah, we are picky on DPS and tank types since they are a dime a dozen, to be honest. We're working to push our progression hard, not for arbitrary ranking on the server, but to experience the content and progress for our satisfaction.

I tend to try out the people who can answer at least half the questions I ask. I'm not interested in teaching tanks theory and mechanics and how to apply that in game. I want someone who can come in and be taught how we do things in a raid and trust that they will do the actual job of tanking without needing their hand held.

The question is, if someone comes and says "I can't answer any of these questions but I don't lose aggro", are they worth a tryout from the masses of applicants who can answer at least some of them? Is there such a thing as a "natural tank" who just knows how to make it go?

How picky is too picky?

Tankage
10-14-2007, 10:44 PM
Well, my tank is my alt, but when I app'd to a progressive raiding guild on my Warlock, I had to do the following:


Initial quick "interview" with the Warlock class lead - he was looking at my spec/gear and we talked about things. I think he was using this as a way to gauge my knowledge of the talent trees in general.
DPS test on Dr. Boom with Warlock class lead - he asked me to think about a rotation change (which I did)
DPS test with the Raid Leader (mage) who takes all official DPS tests for the guild.
Heroic 5-man to test out my CC control/dps/attitude.


When I told my friend about that, he laughed and said that it was crazy for a simple guild app. I didn't think it was such a big deal, and I think the guild got exactly what they wanted. A good DPS'er who knew their class, and could possibly help the guild in their progression.

I don't think the methods you described are too much. If someone is really interested in joining and really knows their stuff, they won't have any problem with going through that process. The only people that will have a problem with it are the ones that fail; and you don't want them anyway. :D

Silentslayer
10-14-2007, 11:27 PM
- Do you know what effective health is? If yes, give a short summary.
- What sort of cycle would you use to generate threat, assuming you need to use Shield Block?
- 490 defense makes you immune to crushing blows?
- 25% block chance is required?
- How can you become immune to crushing blows?
- Is it useful to build Defense past 490?
- Devastate and Sunder Armour: Compare and contrast
- Is it a good idea to stack a lot of avoidance in your gear? Why or why not?

Usually something about their spec:
- Something strange: Why Improved Demo Shout over Improved Thunderclap?
- Checking knowledge: Why Improved Heroic Strike over Improved Sunder?

And finally:
- What would your two ideal next upgrades be (anything from Gruul to SSC)

Exactly the information I read this site to find out :P

gyre
10-15-2007, 12:15 AM
satrina, I don't think 95% of the current tanks out there could answer your questions more than 75%.

i sure know that most of the tanks that i've had a run-in with over the last 2 years couldn't.

hell... most are still in the "i did my 5 sunders, why is my threat only 25% of yours?" camp :)

i've had to take tanks aside and painstakingly explain about effective health and threat cycles far too many times.

-- gyre --

Narshe
10-15-2007, 12:35 AM
satrina, I don't think 95% of the current tanks out there could answer your questions more than 75%.

The information is out here and there. It's their fault to not learn about their class.
The problem is, you can do the interview like Satrina and not recruit a guy that could be a good tank but you can recruit a what you think is a good tank that performs well in Kara but later sucks in higher instances.
We had that problem before. How can a guy that has been tanking for 2 years don't understand the basis about LoS of bosses? (2 weeks wiping on Hydross pulls was too much).

Yes, you are right, most warrior doesn't know anything about theory. Some perform good and some perform bad. You can teach a guy that knows the theory to perform better, and some that don't know theory would start studying it as soon as you point them where to find sites like this one. But some of them cba to check sites even after you tell them to do so, would u risk ur guild by recruiting someone who can be one of those?


The right answer for Satrina's test is:
"You are right, I can't answer more of ur questions, but if you could point me where to get the answers I would be pleased and I promise that I would give them a read." (or how u spell it :D)
If I get that kind of answer after a "Satrina's test" I would give that guy a try.

Rak
10-15-2007, 03:49 AM
Consider this: Kungen couldn't answer your questions. Kungen had to ask a forum how to become crush immune recently. Would he not be a good enough tank for your guild?

As sad as it is that not everyone can answer those simple questions... just because someone doesn't spend lots of time reading up on theory and guides doesn't mean they won't be very good at their job.

Bonerot
10-15-2007, 05:31 AM
I do perform technical interviews for work and I think book knowledge testing on applications is overrated. Sure it's important but it's just a starting point.

A paper test is not a great measure of a tanks abilility. I could answer all of those questions but only because I've put in a lot of time researching and it doesn't require that I had ever run an instance before.

What makes a the difference between a good tank and a great tank though is how well they perform. Take them out give them a spin, heck I'd even let them chose what to tank so you can see them run something they are comfortable with. You'll also get to see what run they choose which again speaks for their experience and confidence.

I'd rather have a tank with good confidence, skill, and control then one who knows all the answers from this site. A player who has the confidence, skill and control can learn the theory pretty easily but the player who has good theory it may still suck at tanking for a long time to come.

Narshe
10-15-2007, 05:46 AM
I think the main point is not the answers but the way he answers.

If the final answer is "None of the top5 guilds worldwide cba about that questions" then that guy can perform good but its a total stupid.
If he answers about how he perform even without knowing that then its worth a try.

Like you say, theory can be learned, but if you starts with zero disposition to learn the theory, for me, is a signal that he is gonna be zero interested in learning new encounters.
You can be the best at your job, but i'd rather pick the second best tank if the best one is a total prick.

juggernauth
10-15-2007, 06:09 AM
I think I can count on my fingers the tanks on my server who can answer 75+% of these questions. I'm not kidding ...

Satrina
10-15-2007, 07:07 AM
I think you're all a bit pessimistic. I generally get answers to all of the questions of some sort, and usually 50-75% correct. People who fall outside of that are the exceptions that I've seen.

The real world comparison is a good one. I also perform interviews for work, and I'll be the first to agree that book learning can be overrated. However, like having a single position open with a flood of applicants, you must have some screening process. The most common one is spelling and grammar on resume and cover letter. By the same token, how many otherwise good and solid prospects do we automatically discard because of that simple screen?

In my real world experience, book learned people tend to be the ones who will put in the effort to keep their skills up to date and develop new ones. In my game experience, the people who have researched theory and mechanics tend to be the ones who put in the effort to read strategies ahead of time and offer constructive input to the learning phase. In both worlds there are exceptions, of course. They seem to be equally rare that I've seen.

All that to offer this point to the discussion: We get 2-3 tank applicants a week, and we have one spot open. Taking every prospect for a trial would basically be a revolving door. How harsh a weeding mechanism does it look now?

(Oh, for point of fact: the guy I was talking to was rejected based on reliable information from another guild he'd applied to regarding personality and skill, superseding any decision I would have to make anyway)

Ceravantes
10-15-2007, 07:13 AM
Not a single one of the tank's I have in my guild, or have recruited have been able to answer most of these questions. However, all the tank's I have invited to the guild came back with answer's.
That to me is the most important. If I ask someone a question they could not answer, and they take their time to find it out and come back to me, unasked, then they are worth a shot. They showed a dedication to their class and their application that not alot of people do. To want to know how to do your job in a raid setting deserves a shot.

Gajanana
10-15-2007, 07:20 AM
- Do you know what effective health is? If yes, give a short summary.
- What sort of cycle would you use to generate threat, assuming you need to use Shield Block?
- 490 defense makes you immune to crushing blows?
- 25% block chance is required?
- How can you become immune to crushing blows?
- Is it useful to build Defense past 490?
- Devastate and Sunder Armour: Compare and contrast
- Is it a good idea to stack a lot of avoidance in your gear? Why or why not?


I am pretty confident I can answer all those questions correctly. But maybe I'm wrong. Like most everyone else here, we are here to learn.

Can you post what you would consider to be acceptable answers to the above questions?

Satrina
10-15-2007, 07:23 AM
I knew I forgot something in my second post. Centx nailed it right on the head. I had one prospect who caught me in game and we interviewed in tells before the application went up on the forums. He said "I don't know" to every question I asked, except for the difference between sunder and devastate.

When I checked the forums an hour later, he had posted his application anyway, and included the answers to all of the questions I had asked in the "anything else we should know?" section.

We hired him.

Satrina
10-15-2007, 07:53 AM
Good call, Gajanana. Go here! (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles-guides/33264-tank-questions-thread.html)

OldHarry
10-15-2007, 07:59 AM
I knew all that stuff and I was the shittiest tank in Outlands because I was book smart but not real world smart. I had never tanked an Outlands instance but would have gotten an A on the quiz. That's all different now, but my point is you can know all this and still be a horrible tank....and a horrible guild-mate.

The reciprocal is also true. People can be great tanks and not know Calculus. I think a better quiz would be:

1. Do you get into arguements about Chuck Norris or Hunters on /2.
2. What is the procedure for rolling on BoP blues if there is an enchanter in the group?
3. Can you keep your mouth shut on vent and do what you're told by the raid leader without arguing?
4. (not a question, rather just go to the armory and look at their gear and their gem choices....that will tell all you need to know almost)
5. I like your question about threat, and which order to push which buttons.
6. Ask them, "Explain the differences between EH, threat, and Avoidance. When do you know you're lacking one, and what would you do about it?"
7. Do you farm honor in AV while you're AFK?


I would also ask questions about their knowledge of other classes. A great tank is someone that knows how many traps a hunter can lay, or a mage to sheep, or a lock to banish, etc. How the team plays together is the most important thing, and while knowing your class is great, I don't think all that theorycraft in the initial interview is what's the most important...just that they know the difference betwee aggro, health, and avoidance, and how to achieve each.

Mesh
10-15-2007, 08:14 AM
It really depends on how your raid is structured, how many apps you have to filter etc.

Once in a while we get apps for one of our three guilds in our raid alliance. If he wants to join my guild and is a warrior, my GM tends to talk to him in TS and after that he gets me in as well. Nevertheless I mostly check his gear and then tell him, we ain't got a raiding spot for you, can you live with it. Truth to be told, we had to slim down our raid quite a bit since we had some low performers and also a too large cadre anyways.
The problem with a questionaire like this is unfortunately that quite a lot of folks just play the game without digging deep into the mechanics thing. I bet my two co tanks wouldn't be able to answer more than lets say 30-40 % of the questions. Nevertheless they perform ok in a raid. Which is why I'd always test an applicant somehow ingame, either once he is a trial or if you don't outgear the instance in a heroic beforehands.

Quite a lot of tanks are actually doing the right thing without knowing why it is right, either because they tested it themselves or because they just read it somewhere and took it over without reflecting about it. If a tank sucks you will see it pretty quickly anyway.

Satrina
10-15-2007, 08:25 AM
Every guild builds retard checks into their recruiting process from the start. Warrior lead/class lead/whatever is generally only interested in checking class knowledge and performance.

OldHarry's point about knowledge of other classes is a good one. It leads to the difference between a good 5 man tank and a good raid tank. They are not the same skill set. It's much easier to be a good raid tank, and I've seen decent raid tanks who utterly fail as a 5 man tank.

In my guild, when we recruit someone, they get thrown in fast to check if they can live up to it. Again, I think everyone does that. We tagged one prospect at 7:45 and I had him on Gruul at 8:25. Void Reaver is one of my favourites for this, since you can see in one fight how they manage both limited rage situations and how they generate threat as main aggro target.

Interesting discussion for sure, keep it going!


Quite a lot of tanks are actually doing the right thing without knowing why it is right, either because they tested it themselves or because they just read it somewhere and took it over without reflecting about it. If a tank sucks you will see it pretty quickly anyway.
Yep. All told, I am actually not super fussy on any given person giving all the "right" answers. Well, okay, if someone is all "490 defense stops crushing blows!", I'll probably say no. But mostly what I want to see is what they say, and how they reason it. They could be reasoning it out from first principles for all I know, but if the logic is sound that's good enough for me.

Finelle
10-15-2007, 10:39 AM
"Because I was told to." is a particularly sticky one IMO. If someone didn't bother to find out why exactly he was doing something as big as sticking 12stam into everything, what are the chances that they'll continue to improve? Will they need to be told all the improvement steps?

Things change, patches continue rolling and knowing only a particular key sequence to hit without any of the underlying theory *at all* is a recipe for degrading performance.

Razmo
10-16-2007, 01:27 AM
I'm MT in a Kara guild. We got 2 Kara groups now.

When we needed tanks I wasn't looking at egar or how much they know about tanking.The only question I asked was are you willing to learn about tanking and follow my advise. Our OT had rly bad gear, we hooked him up and he does a good job now. Most importand thing for your tanks is to communicate. Kara isn't that hard but still sometimes we almost work but with good team work and communication we work it out.

OFC for BT guilds this isn't going to work, takes to much time to teach a noob everything and imp. his gear.

Tristessa
10-16-2007, 11:55 PM
satrina, I don't think 95% of the current tanks out there could answer your questions more than 75%.
I think that most decent tanks who are serious about being in a raiding guild should know at least half of the first bunch of questions. I knew at least half the answers before coming to Tankspot--and most of the answers were from lurking in the WoW official warrior forums and from wowwiki.com.

(I'm not even in a "raiding" guild...lawl)

I think that:
*. willingness to tank, and
*. a willingness to improve

Are very important as well, and more than makes up for not being able to answer the other half of those questions.

Razmo
10-17-2007, 12:01 AM
Well ofc a good tanks knows the answers. But 3 tanks I take under my wing in my guild don't know them, the thing I love about them, they are willing to learn and they don't care how aslong as there raid and skills improve. It's that kind of detecation you need to be lookign for.

Wulverin
10-17-2007, 12:36 AM
It's always much easier to teach knowledge and train skills than it is to modify behaviour or attitude.

Assuming the minimum required knowledge and skills are present from that point on I would always recruit based on personality, behaviour and attitude.

Razmo
10-17-2007, 12:45 AM
I agree 100%

Ceravantes
10-17-2007, 08:17 AM
There is a big difference in 5 man and raid tanks, and as satrina said being good at one does not mean you are good at the other. The question's Satrina asked are question that, while they pertain to the warrior class as a whole, are much more important for raid tanks. For guilds progressing through SSC/TK now it can be difficult to pull in quality recruits, ebcause most servers have a fair amount of guilds running the same content, ewach said guild carrying a mix of good and bad players, this leaves the pool for competent new players fairly small so some form of interveiw process is necessary, This is generaly not going to be the case for guilds in Karazhan, or running T6 content.

Kenney
10-31-2007, 03:40 PM
A lot really seems to be how your guild is structured. On one hand, I would really like to hear a lot of those questions answered right the moment they were asked. I like people that are proactive rather than reactive in their research. Anyone that researches how to do their job well will know the answers to those questions, and I think a knowledge of the theory demonstrates a commitment to excellence.

HOWEVER: as many people have pointed out, knowing your theory does not neccessarily mean that you are smooth with your cycle, manage your rage well, and can position well while maintaining high threat. There's more to the job than theory. My feeling is that if you have one theorist in your warrior tank pool, and everyone else in that pool LISTENS to them- that is enough. I spent a year acting as off-tank to an extremely good twitch player who just didn't enjoy reading boards and messing with spreadsheets (or mathematica =x). We made an awesome team though, because he would ask my advice on threat cycles and gear- and WAS the kind of person who could be relied on to think to stance dance to mocking blow when needed, and he had a very good intuitive sense for learning progression content. Between the two of us, it was really good- we respected each other enormously, and each contributed to the team in our own way.

So at the end of the day, I don't think that every potentially good tank knows the theory. Not all good tanks are researchers. Then again, if you have 3 applicants a week, then you can afford to look for researchers with twitch skills. With that many applicants, you can afford to lose a few that might have been perfect for the job, especially if by so doing you avoid the pain of spending hours in tryouts. I'd almost prefer an attitude screen to a research screen, since you so obviously know enough theory for the rest of your tanks, but I can't think how to screen for attitude with the same precision you can screen for knowledge.

Meatballs
02-27-2008, 05:08 PM
I would add the following question:

How do you rotate your camera?

Awareness of surroundings is one of the hardest things for a tank, and good awareness is a skill I see very rarely in all players. A tank should be able to rotate his camera with ease, although failing that zooming out to max distance is a big help.

This question doesn't show you they have good awareness, but the ones that come back with a quick answer might possibly be one of those gems that you cant afford to pass up. Looking above its the 'twitch' gamer mentioned above, probably someone that used to strafe jump in quake2 ;)

These are the people that learn the encounter first/second time round and are waiting for the other 15-24 people to catch up :D

Creampuf
06-20-2008, 01:12 PM
Frankly, book knowledge doesn't mean diddly when it comes to if someone can play the game. Book knowledge is very useful in a guild to help maximize potential, but it is not something everyone needs. It's far more important that each guild member can listen to constructive criticism, take direction and is smart enough to know what they don't know.

I'd rather play with someone who doesn't know any of the answers, but is willing to work hard to improve as a player than with someone who gets the wrong answer on 25% of the questions but instead of saying "I really don't know" they give a wrong answer that they think is right.

Moreover, a bowl of clam chowder might gain enough sentience to read a board and memorize a few facts about a class to spew back for an interview. That doesn't mean their fingers know what buttons to push when, or how to react when things go to crap.

I'd rather have someone who used a less than ideal threat rotation and who didn't gem out the way the theory wonks claim they should but who never, ever lost their head on a bad pull than raid with someone who could hit max threat every time, but who curled up into a little ball and whimpered for mommy when things went to heck.

Threat rotation and gem selection can be taught. Theorycraft can be learned. But you can't create a cool head and a winning personality out of a panic prone jerk.

Frankly, if given that sort of entrance exam, I'd think "well, tanks may be a dime a dozen, but guilds aren't far behind." And while not getting me probably wouldn't hurt anyone much since I suck only slightly less than a turbo charged Bissell fitted with nitro injectors, there still might be more than a few guys you're turning away that would be a heck of a lot better than the one's your getting.

Good teams are synergistic. Having only theory-craft types who read the discussion boards misses a lot of different personality types who also have something to contribute. Not everyone is into boards and research and class trivia. That doesn't make them less acceptable as players. It makes them different. Good guilds recruitment needs to look at ability and personality as much, or more, than the ability to win the WoW Trivial Pursuit Challenge.

chuglur
06-22-2008, 01:38 PM
I would say it really depends on your level of progression and what kind of tank you plan to recruit.

By what kind of tank I mean a project tank that you take on and improve or someone that is your equal and is essentially a 2nd MT.

As for progression level, I would say at this point almost nobody in t4-t6 would know all the answers or 75% of 95% of the answers as previous posters noted. However I would say a majority of 4/6 Sunwell guild MTs would know the answers 95-100%.

Also I agree with the previous post noting that the questions serve as a litmus test of how the applicant answers depending on again what you are recruiting: project/MT. If you are recruiting a project, then his answers don't have to be correct nessasarily. They just have to reflect his desire and willingness to learn as well as his capacity to learn. MTs should pretty much get the answers all right or they will be holding back the guild at some point.

loquatious
06-23-2008, 07:01 AM
I dont understand this "book lernin' is useless" we are not talking about real life here, its WoW. When I'm standing there tanking a bosses ankles I'm pretty much relying on my gear and healers to keep me alive. The raid is depending on my aggro to be able to DPS as hard as they can.

My Skill consists of hitting the buttons in the right order at the right time. Every now and again i have to lunge for a healthstone, nightmare seed, cooldown etc. But by and large its not exactly twitch reliant. Having the right gear on, correct gems & enchants + knowing the best strat ahead of time - those are the keys to victory. And suprise, they are the result of research

Creampuf
06-23-2008, 02:10 PM
I dont understand this "book lernin' is useless" we are not talking about real life here, its WoW. When I'm standing there tanking a bosses ankles I'm pretty much relying on my gear and healers to keep me alive. The raid is depending on my aggro to be able to DPS as hard as they can.

My Skill consists of hitting the buttons in the right order at the right time. Every now and again i have to lunge for a healthstone, nightmare seed, cooldown etc. But by and large its not exactly twitch reliant. Having the right gear on, correct gems & enchants + knowing the best strat ahead of time - those are the keys to victory. And suprise, they are the result of research

Not knowing the term "effective health," or knowing if a particular gem is the theoretical best choice doesn't imply anything about the person other than they play the game without the benefit of spending additional hours reading forums like this one.

Yes, as a computer game there is a limited set of correct, discreat solutions to the question of "what is the best gem and gear selection given whatever?" But that doesn't mean the person can pick up a target in the raid, or watch the healer's health bars, or manage to do anything but mash buttons.

It's not that book learning is useless. It is rather, a rather small part of being able to play a tank well. Indeed, outside of the max threat rotation, it's all about equipment choices which really aren't about playing at all, but about preparing to play.

It is far more important that a new recruit fit in with a guild in terms of personality, expectations, shared goals, etc. They need to be able to play the role asked of them without drama, and to learn from others who are more experienced than them, or who do have the time to waste reading forums on theorycraft.

A player who knows all those answers off the top of their head is going to leave out a large demographic of players who are still quite capable, good people to have in a guild, and may in fact be better for the guild than the person who does know all those points.

I love it that my guild has folks like me (40 somethings) as well as the younger hard-core gamer crowd. I only started reading these blogs because someone else pointed me here and I found the discussion interesting. But it's hardly the case that I sucked because I didn't have that trivia burned into my brain. I sucked for completely seperate reasons :)

minrog
06-25-2008, 07:04 AM
I think if I had been apping to your guild I would have gotten them right. Most of the people who answer your questions are probably tankspot readers and likely also spend time using Rawr or some other theorycrafting engine to model their setup and gear. By that I mean we're probably not the most accurate sample to look at.

As for being picky I think those are appropriate questions in some respects. Anyone applying to your guild (evil empire?) or someone like Kenco's guild has to realize the tank spots are going to be heavily screened.

By the way, is the Sunder versus Devastate answer:

"Sunder is the crappy non scaling pre-TBC standard rotation skill because Blizzard hates us and wants us to roll Arms for PVP."

"Devastate is the crappy 50% scaling post-TBC standard rotation skill because, well, it's better than nothing and they felt like they had to give us something when they added those extra 10 talent points."

Heh.

Satrina
06-25-2008, 08:05 AM
I only have a few things to add at this point to this thread, since our recruiting model has been stable and working for a long time now.

This post was directed at a specific part of the recruiting process, and more than a few people (at least seem to) have made the assumption that questions are the only criteria we use. That's just silly.

I would have thought that screening out raging asshats as part of the overall recruiting process was a given, for example. That said, every guild is different. We care about progression and not much else. As long as a person is skilled, productive during raids, and isn't disruptive of raids while they're going on - I don't care how many people won't group with you in heroics or have you on ignore. Up until the point where your actions start to affect our reputation as a guild, we don't care what you do. Clearly, not every guild is like this.

This thread was started 8 months ago. At this point in the game I do expect a higher level of book learnin' than I did then. That has a lot to do with the maturity and availability of the information (this site, Quigon's nice guide on Elitist Jerks, and other resources around the 'net), but more with our level of progression. I am already expecting applicants to know what order to hit the buttons in if they're looking to get into a Tier 6 guild. What I need to know is if you have the nuances down, many of which are found in theory. What I don't need is to need to take the time to teach someone that, and I especially don't have time to teach things like how to be uncrittable/uncrushable or how to do an optimal threat rotation!

We've been good on tanks for about 5 months now. In my experience in evaluating tanks - and we tried out pretty much everyone who was not an asshat, could answer at least half the questions, and seemed to have a general clue - the ones who had their theorycraft more right than wrong were the ones that ultimately made it to the later weeks of tryout.

Is what I need in a tank the same for everyone else? Probably not. It's working for us, and your mileage will definitely vary.

Garbid
07-07-2008, 06:21 PM
Thought I'd mention how I do my questions in my guild. I write them as a reply to the app in the thread. So in fact give them time to do all the research they can/want. Had a mage application where mage was way below in hit rating. I told him that hit rating was his most important stat until he had it capped. Then I asked what his hitcap was and what was he to do about it if he were to join us (stepping into BT).

Leaving it on the thread was imo a good way of seeing if that person either had the knowledge or would spend the time needed to research it. Believe it or not, I even linked mage wow forums into the thread. And still after a coupla days and two more posts, I still hadn't got an answer from him until another spellcaster ruined it for me by answering for him. But his lack of knowledge and lack of researching almost "given" answers were enough.

Sascaroth
07-08-2008, 01:30 PM
this is funny as i looked at the questions i answer all of them, on the EH question i answered it's convination of health and armor added up together but i have no idea how to do that i just use the Tankspot calculators :P other then that i answered all the questions right away :P

Rev13
07-10-2008, 09:12 AM
I have a dps for a main. (Im here to learn how to tank, and in general im a forum junky) Not only that, I have a dps class with a stream-lined, efficient, cookie cutter, tried and tested method of dealing damage. So much so that there is only one spec and one rotation and 1 method of playing that is considered acceptable. Because of this, apping for a guild is tricky because any Huntard can be taught to spec the spec, and can be told make the macro, and to use it to be the best they can be. It isnt hard. The learning curve is small, because there isnt much to learn. So, getting interviewed doesnt tell the interviewerer as much as other classes, only that I can type on my keyboard and stumble into the WoW forums at least once.

because of that, I see the issue both ways. i look at it this way, OP:

1. you filtered out a candidate who didnt have any active knowledge of his class/role. the candidate had only passive knowledge on the subject.

2. you also didnt get to know the player. maybe he had a bad day at work/school. maybe his brain was exhausted. maybe you made him nervous with the hard questions and he brain-farted the answers. you dont know what he knows, only what he doesnt know, see that?

You can recruit either way, either way isnt right or wrong, in fact, I would recruit classes differently, i think. If its an MT role, or MH, i might be stricter. if its a dps, i might be a little easier, friendlier.

Satrina
07-10-2008, 09:29 AM
You clearly haven't read my post a few above yours.


This post was directed at a specific part of the recruiting process, and more than a few people (at least seem to) have made the assumption that questions are the only criteria we use. That's just silly.


To address your points:

1) Passive is what counts, really. As you say, any monkey can be taught to press the buttons in the right order. (Edit: and for our purposes, we take that ability as given in a recruit, so it's not a selling point) If that's all it were, recruiting would be an exercise in training a dog. Good boy! What I need is someone who has progressed to where I don't need to answer what should I wear for this boss? every night. The foundation of that is theory. What I need is I tried this gear combination based on the boss abilities and observed damage intake from before, and found it better/worse than the one we used before. Healers, what do you think?

2) Exactly the point. If you freeze up with a bunch of questions on a forum where you have as much time as you want to go look it up if you don't know, how can you expect me to believe you will perform in real time when the wheels come off?

I discuss the player in the context of our guild above as well. As I said there, your guild's mileage may vary.

You say you'd be stricter for an MT role. This thread discusses recruiting tanks... Though I don't see why you wouldn't be as stringent for a DPS as anyone else. "Friendly" tends to let in people who die in fire because they can't find their ass with both hands. Again, YMMV.

Rev13
07-10-2008, 12:27 PM
I think I need to define myself a bit better.

When I say active knowledge, I am thinking along the lines of person X knowing fact X because he did his research, asked questions (beyond getting in trade and getting some short abbreviated answer) tested, and came up with his conclusions. Knowledge like this is a bit more satisfying to the learner and is more readily brought to mind in a tough situation where the information is needed

When I say passive knowledge, I am again speaking in context of the knowledge's acquisition. Example

[Trade]Warriorguy: How do I be a gud tnak? ne1 help me plx :)

(exagerration, but you get the point)

[Tankman]You just have 2 Sunder 5 times, then do X and X, and you will be good.
[Warriorguy] KTHXBAI!!

Knowledge like that is what will lead to warriorguy screaming "Why isnt this working!!!1!! I did what the man said!!!" Because theres no theorycraft behind it, no base formula for recalculating on the fly, adjusting as needed, etc.

Sorry for the confusion, we might have been speaking 2 languages to each other :)