PDA

View Full Version : looking for raid progression advice



Lavache
10-10-2007, 08:22 AM
brief guild history - started as an alt guild, our main guild imploded, we joined the alt guild. a few guild masters later, i end up in charge. at the time i took over we had reverted to one karazhan group from two groups clearing and successful high king kills and were struggling to get numbers for anything. we have recruited some good players, a few goobers who will be on their way out shortly and have started getting back into 25 man content. last week we killed high king (first kill with me as GM) on our first pull after two weeks of minimal attempts (about 2 hours at a time) and got gruul down to 24% after a few attempts.

tonight we went to SSC to get some shots in at lurker / trash drops, and it was a smashing non-success. we had more than enough people show up and extra healers - a far cry from a month ago when we had people log alt healers for kara runs just to get enough people, which is good. i will say that it was a last minute change and it didnt seem to go over well, which i can accept as a mistake on my part. a number of people were complaining (imo) about going to ssc instead of karazhan tonight. before changing i asked in guild chat if anyone objected to going to SSC instead, and i dont recall anyone saying they would prefer to go somewhere else. once we got going though, two of the other officers received numerous tells about it saying we should be anywhere else but ssc.

am i going about things the wrong way? i am still struggling to get people past the mindset that everyone needs to have the full gamut of kara gear to succeed and its a hard sell. i am also trying to get people past wanting to just hit farm instances and work on progression content more and again, its a hard sell. now i have people telling me we need to keep running karazhan, some saying we should go after Void Reaver and Mag, some saying just High King / Gruul and kara - i know as a group we have the players to succeed, but its driving me up the wall to make the leap into bigger content.

i guess what i am looking for is advice on how and where to proceed and how to get people into the swing of things without feeling like we are wasting our time and creating negative feelings.

thanks.

Vakfaroosh
10-10-2007, 08:27 AM
LaVache,

This is the exact same thing going on with our guild, I mean exact.

We have decided to take a more hard line on raiding. If you want to raid do XYZ, if you do not do XYZ you will be replaced in raiding, and when people didn't believe us we went out and recruited.

Paumedie
10-10-2007, 08:35 AM
If I were in your position, I would most likely try to get Gruul down so you can get that instance clear. After that, I'd try Void Reaver then Magtheridon.

I think whether you choose to farm instances until you way outgear progression encounters or try to push your raid to progress quickly depends on the direction you want to take your guild. Do you want your guild to be a group of friends who just raids casually to have something to do or do you want your guild to push through content in the interests of seeing as much of BC raid content as possible?

You'll always have people who are more "hardcore" and more "casual" in a guild. Being able to balance different personalities, playstyles, and goals and making everyone in your guild work together is what makes leading a guild challenging. :)

Hope this helps.

Anaea
10-10-2007, 10:23 AM
It sounds like there is a significant number of people who still want to go to Kara. I think the question to ask is why this is.

Are your raiders, on the whole, undergeared for the 25-man content? More importantly, do you know?

If they are undergeared, then I would say that you should focus progression on Gruul and keep farming Kara to get your members into a comfortable gear position. If they're not undergeared, explain to them (with specific metrics and details) why they're not.

It also sounds like you could benefit from getting more raid leaders into the action. Regardless of whether the whole raid is geared, there will likely be people who are a little behind and others who want that one last item.

I'd recommend that you find people with the capacity to lead farming runs, and encourage them to set up these runs on forums or on the calendar - the same way they would get a 5-man together. That way people still feel like the have access to this method of improvement, but you don't have to spend you more official time on old content.

Good luck. :)

Horacio
10-10-2007, 11:10 AM
I think whether you choose to farm instances until you way outgear progression encounters or try to push your raid to progress quickly depends on the direction you want to take your guild. Do you want your guild to be a group of friends who just raids casually to have something to do or do you want your guild to push through content in the interests of seeing as much of BC raid content as possible?

You'll always have people who are more "hardcore" and more "casual" in a guild. Being able to balance different personalities, playstyles, and goals and making everyone in your guild work together is what makes leading a guild challenging.

Hope this helps.

I agree with this 100%

Lavache
10-10-2007, 12:58 PM
You'll always have people who are more "hardcore" and more "casual" in a guild. Being able to balance different personalities, playstyles, and goals and making everyone in your guild work together is what makes leading a guild challenging. :)

Hope this helps.

any advice on how to go about this? i really wish i didnt have a deadline today so i could spend more time on this :(

Graalsemk
10-11-2007, 08:24 AM
Changing raid schedules at the last minute, especially when the raid doesn't go well will generate complaints. I'd say set your raid schedule, and then stick to it.

Also, Lurker is a tougher boss than Gruul. Gruul has 3.4 million hitpoints to get through in about 8-9 mins (16-18 grows is pretty much the max before the tank is dead), Lurker has 3.8 million to get through in 10 mins, and a portion of that time he is submerged and you don't get to hit him. Lurker also requires more coordination from the raid.

You probably want to consider Gruul a gear check. You really need to be able to get at least Gruul down before heading to SSC, and probably want to do VR and Mag before Lurker as well.

You don't need everyone in full Kara gear to progress in the game, but that assumes that everyone in their mix of kara and dungeon blues has everything gemmed and enchanted to maximum effect, has speced for maximum possible raid effectiveness and is running ideal spell rotations with a great deal of coordination and skill.

If this isn't true (and as you are having some difficulty with Gruul it isn't likely) your guild probably needs to spend some more time farming Kara for gear.

A few questions, How many nights a week is your guild raiding? How many nights does it take to clear Kara? Are there nights where it is easier to get 25 people on for raids?

Ceravantes
10-14-2007, 09:38 AM
Changing raid schedules at the last minute, especially when the raid doesn't go well will generate complaints. I'd say set your raid schedule, and then stick to it.

Also, Lurker is a tougher boss than Gruul. Gruul has 3.4 million hitpoints to get through in about 8-9 mins (16-18 grows is pretty much the max before the tank is dead), Lurker has 3.8 million to get through in 10 mins, and a portion of that time he is submerged and you don't get to hit him. Lurker also requires more coordination from the raid.

I know he doesn't now, but I don't recall Lurker ever having an enrage Timer, That still doesn't change the fact that Gruul is a much easier boss, Mag can easily be skipped over for progression into the easier tk/ssc bosses, but not gruul.

What is the problem you are having with Gruul? The most likely cause for Gruul wipes in a raid group new to 25 man instances is going to be coordination issue's, this is the zone that is going to show wether your raid group is capable of the coordination needed to proceed intot he easier boss's in tk/ssc, if people are dying to shatters consistently then they will die to orb's consistently.

Lavache
10-14-2007, 05:49 PM
http://wowwebstats.com/aqhpmcbt5ujrk

here are the wws stats for the 1st night. the 2nd night we had all kinds of disconnects, and my combat log didnt record everything for some reason.

this was also the 1st night about half of the people there had seen this fight.

Clifford
10-15-2007, 02:22 AM
This is a really interesting question for me as well. I am the guild MT and also the raid leader/organiser. Our guild is a casual raiding guild and focus on fun, whilst still trying to see more content. We only raid 3 evenings a week.

At the moment our achievements are:
(1) 2 groups clear Kara in 2 nights (for fun/gear etc). This only leaves one night for 25-man raiding at the moment.
(2) We are farming Gruul. He usually dies at the 13th/14th growth.
(3) Last night we got Void Reaver to 9% before he enraged (this was our second attempt on him).

Now I believe we will kill Void Reaver next week, at which point we will farm him and Gruul for awhile.

My question is: Should I go to Magtheridon or start SSC for the Lurker?.

swipe
10-16-2007, 04:01 AM
Magtheridon can be really demoralizing if you mess up the clicking. No matter how well you do or how much you overgear the instance you still wipe if you mess upp the clicking.

In my opinion its best to go to Lurker because thats the simplest encounter i know of. The trash on the way there will also yield you a ton of recipies, random epics and nether vortexes.

Anaea
10-16-2007, 08:19 AM
Coriel over at Blessing of Kings has a great post about "where to next" for more casual raiding guilds: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2007/10/choosing-your-battles.html

Your mileage will vary depending on your raid schedule.

Looking at your WWS parse, DPS is an issue for some of your players. You won't have too much to do in SSC - Hydross requires a raid DPS in the area of 8000, and while Lurker is more forgiving I'd have to agree with your raiders that that time could be better spent on Gruul.

Some things that might help motivate your players will be to give them concrete goals. This keeps them from feeling like they're just banging their heads on content each night, with no real idea of how to improve.

We gave our raiders some math. (Gruul's HP) / (time until 16 growths) = about 7000 raid DPS. Divided by 15 DPSers, and you're going to want to see everyone pulling about 475-500 DPS at a minimum (assuming 100% DPS time, which isn't likely).

The majority of your raid isn't at that point, so their challenge (and yours) right now shouldn't be getting a new boss down. It should be "training up" - and to some extent gearing up - to where you can get Gruul down easily. The knowledge is there; both Minipimp and Aelienna have easily passed that marker. Perhaps they can share some of their strategies and tips with other raiders?

At least for us, that kind of self-set milestone is a lot more important than "progression." After all, it's the foundation on which we plan to build that progression. :)

Lavache
10-16-2007, 09:20 AM
Coriel over at Blessing of Kings has a great post about "where to next" for more casual raiding guilds: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2007/10/choosing-your-battles.html


this i like.


Knowing how to squeeze maximum performance out of your current gear is more important than gearing up, especially for DPS. Getting T4 level epics is not going to take a 400 DPS character to 800 DPS.

that may be the best thing i have read in weeks about all of this. it is now officially spammed all over the guild webpage. hopefully it sinks in.

thank you all for your help and advice.