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Ciderhelm
10-02-2007, 12:09 AM
Sitting in the drafts forum for two weeks has been a multi-page guide on loot systems. I just haven't felt comfortable finishing it because it lays some pretty hefty criticisms that may be unwarranted -- especially on Loot Council.

There are a hundred different loot systems in this game. I'll share our own loot system -- the one we found most effective in my last guild -- in the coming days. You may be surprised just how spartan it was. For now, I'll just post the introduction to this guide, and let you guys expand, discuss, or disagree.

* * * * *


The following is written to cover item distribution and currency as they relate to raiding guild management. The principles covered here will be valuable to anyone running a guild which involves endgame content.


What Is Guild Item Distribution
There are many different item distribution systems available to new and established guilds. These are most often seen in a currency-based system, or DKP, or a decision-based system, or Loot Council.

DKP is a generic term for currency-based guild management. The name, Dragon Kill Points, stems from an item management system created by Afterlife (Cenarius) which was a heavy-weight guild in Everquest.

Today, nearly any loot system that involves purchasing items is called DKP, though they often share little similarity beyond the name. Understand that -- unless specifically stated -- this article refers to the generic term, not to a specific ruleset.


Theory of Guild Loot Distribution
Loot distribution is not about fairness; it is about incentive. Secondarily, it is about strategic progression.

To take that a step further -- any system with a Loot Council, any system with an item priority, and any system with an item cost, is unfair. Any system with a complex ruleset is unfair.

Why? Because you are setting arbitrary values and restrictions based on an opinion of what is the right course for your guild. These values and restrictions will not correlate to the worth an item may have to individual players.

For instance, a Druid may believe a staff is worth three weeks of her work, while a Mage may believe the same staff is only worth one week of his work; many loot systems, whether based on class priority or another arbitrary reason, may award the staff to the Mage over the Druid, even if both can afford the item. This is often good for the guild, especially newer guilds where players may not fully understand the impact of loot on their raid; it is not fair.

Consider also that many loot systems will not compensate people for work they do outside of a traditional raid setting. For instance, if a players attend optional raids or spend a large amount of time farming flask materials for the guild, they are often not rewarded for their work.

That decision is often made by guilds who do not want to discourage people who work long hours during the day or cannot be available on weekends. While in many situations it can be helpful to not reward people for necessary work -- to satisfy the people who cannot or do not want to do extra work on behalf of the guild -- do not be under any illusions that it is fair.

Once you accept that nearly any system you create will have an inherent unfairness you will be able to best focus on the real goal of your loot system -- incentive.



Incentivizing Your DKP
In a perfect world, everyone would raid and perform every function of the guild without reward. Raiders would never raid for loot, they would always have consumables, and they would always show up on time. The most flawed systems and the least stable guilds have been built out of this philosophy.

What should happen and what does happen are two very different things. While, yes, most raiders do not care about loot, it is also not criminal to care about the advancement of your character in a game based on that premise. Drama will start when people get the feeling they are being treated poorly in regards to their efforts, no matter how honorable the players or how noble the intention.

One of the unique advantages to a currency-based system is the ability to use arbitrary measures to increase guild productivity. In other words, you can encourage people to farm more materials, show up for optional raids, or complete other tasks on behalf of the guild by awarding them with DKP.


Showing Up & Ending On Time
One of the most practical uses for using DKP as an incentive is by providing a reward for people who show up on time. While certainly not necessary nor recommended for every guild, it can be very useful for guilds struggling with starting on-time or retaining players through the end of scheduled raids.


Being Available Outside Instance
Another common use for DKP is to reward people who are not participating in a raid but are on-call and ready to zone in. This allows greater flexibility in asking guild raiders to step out of raids when dealing with encounters that require strict class balancing.

Rewarding players who are ready to zone in and are waiting at the raid zone with full -- not partial -- DKP is the best way to reduce poor attitudes from raiders who cannot participate in a raid.

However, some active raiders will take offense to players consistently abusing this system to acquire DKP without putting in the effort; solving this cannot be handled in the context of a loot system. You need to make sure you have a roster of raiders who respect the contributions of each other and have shown a propensity to work towards the goal, not themselves.


Reward Personal & Group Farming
To the degree you can afford to make this decision in your guild -- understanding that it may cause issues with some players -- it is a good idea to reward efforts made by people outside of raid time. After all, they are going above and beyond in making sure your guild continues to be able to raid, both in terms of consumables and gearing.

A good way of handling this is through an in-depth tally of your guild bank through spreadsheets, mods, or Notepad. By observing what you have and determining what you need for progression through upcoming content (Primals to help produce Resistance gear for Hydross or Solarian, for instance), you can effectively come up with priorities on materials.

Unfortunately, due to the way Blizzard has structured the professions, you will be unable to serve all professions equally. For instance, Engineering produces very little that is extremely helpful to raiding, whereas Herbalism and Alchemy often have a large impact on progression.

To solve this, when listing items, be aware of average Auction House prices on your server and attempt to keep your own DKP rewards in line with those prices -- this will allow members of any profession to trade gold for necessary guild items via the open market.


First Boss Kill & No-Loot Reward
Another common and helpful place to reward DKP is on nights that are oriented towards killing a boss. Taking a two-pronged approach can be helpful.

First, you want to reward people for being at raids where there is no expectation of loot. This is often the biggest hurdle for guilds, so being flexible and offering 1.5x or sometimes 2x the normal per-hour or per-night points to raiders can help kick people into gear. There is certainly nothing wrong with this method, either -- remember, especially with a new guild, your most valuable and dedicated raiders are showing up with no expectation of loot.

Second, reward people for killing a boss. This motivates people to finish the encounter and can help your raiders push each other towards excellence. I can't count the number of times I have heard -- from amazing raiders -- that we should go one more time to get the First Boss Kill DKP.


No-Show DKP
Don't have enough for a raid? Don't take it out on the players who did show up. Reward them well.


The above examples are not necessary nor are they the only good examples of incentivizing your DKP system. Any guild goal, even a guild movie, can be incentivized.

It's your guild, your goals -- use your system to support it.

Anaea
10-02-2007, 05:58 AM
Once you accept that nearly any system you create will have an inherent unfairness you will be able to best focus on the real goal of your loot system -- incentive.

This should be the starting point for any guild looking at loot distribution systems, and it's really great that you get to it so early in your post. Too many guilds implement something because "the other guys use that" rather than thinking about their own situation.

When we were examining 25-man loot systems, we started with one question: what do we want the loot system to accomplish? Then we asked, are there better ways to accomplish this?

For instance, one of the things we were looking at originally was a loot system that would "reward" attendance. But the more we teased out the repercussions of that kind of a move (new raiders being shut out of loot, inflation, etc.) the more we realized that, for our casual-progressive model, loot distribution was by far too kludgy a tool to use for this task - instead, we're looking at how we run raids, and "raider" type ranks for this purpose.

Similarly, we thought about having a system that would reward those things like coming with pots, coming repaired, etc. But then, again, we decided that for us it would be much less cumbersome to make those baseline requirements for raid invites rather than try to use random item drops as incentive for them. We just don't raid often enough for that kind of a system to be an effective motivator.

In the end, we decided that all we wanted the loot system to accomplish was to distribute gear relatively evenly among the raid in a transparent fashion. That foundation made our choices much easier going forward. :)


::edited to include some more thoughts::

Paruhdox
10-02-2007, 08:25 AM
There is a large misconception sometimes when it comes too loot. No matter what the system, people expect it to be fair but that will never be the case. There is a hierarchy in the guild structure and the people that set the most finite of rules for loot still make the system they want fair or not.

Our guild uses a loot council and the reason we do it is because we base the loot we give out, on the "benifit" to the guild.

I just want to explain what our system attempts to achieve and it does do a fairly accurate job. Our system is based off a few things:

1. Who would benifit most from the item?

2. If this person benifits the most, is he active enough and does he put the time in to deserve it? (this does not mean that people without 100% attendance don't get loot, it just means that they wont get as much.)

3. The last thing we look at is how much loot has this person taken already? and make sure that loot is being distributed fairly.

There are a few exceptions to this rule, one being the main tank. He/I will take any loot we can use. This isnt because we are greedy, but because the guild benifits more for every piece of gear we have. This does put tanks on the spot sometimes, but it is a role some people chose. The tank that gets the loot also probably maintains a high 99%-100% attendance.

Two reasons I personally am a fan of this system:

1. It weeds out the people that raid for JUST epics, the people who log on for farm nights and not progression nights. Often these people get very aggitated when they get no loot because all they do is show up for old content and leave.

This is not to say people do not raid for just loot, and some people do both. They raid for loot but attend progression nights, they earn their loot.

2. This system make it the easy to complete new encounters. In my opinion from past experiences this systems causes faster progression which in the end gets you more epics. The people who do want to progress and just log on for farm content are ususally to dim to realize that PROGRESSION = more dead bosses = more dead bosses = more purples.

nethervoid
10-02-2007, 09:39 AM
I agree with incentivising 'good behavior', but the problem you create is that of inflation. Possibly one way around this inflation, when using a zero sum DKP system as many guilds do to kill inflation, is to artificially inflate the member's DKP modifier for the night. What I mean is this:

For ease of use, let's assume a 5 man raid. Before the raid begins, the following DKP balances are observed:

Frank: 50 DKP
James: 35 DKP
Sally: 80 DKP
Laura: 100 DKP
Paula: -20 DKP

You kill a boss, and 2 epics drop. Management has decided a long time ago that each piece of loot which is looted by a raider is worth 20 DKP, so both pieces are looted (loot that rots/is sharded is worth zero since nobody spent any DKP on the item). Here's the following scenario in a strait up zero sum DKP system:

Sally and James loot an item. Sally and James are debted 20 DKP each, totalling 40 DKP spent. This is redistributed to all other non-looting raiders evenly. 40/3 = 13.3 respectively. The following post-kill balances are observed:

Frank: 50 + 13.3 = 63.3 DKP
James: 35 - 20 = 15 DKP
Sally: 80 - 20 = 60 DKP
Laura: 100 + 13.3 = 113.3 DKP
Paula: -20 + 13.3 = -6.7 DKP

In this system, if you award more DKP for those who were on time to the raid while no DKP was spent at that point of the raid, you will see inflation. This is obvious.

Now instead you could incentivize arriving on time or any other non-boss kill behavior by adjusting the individuals 'weight' on any DKP transactions. For example, arriving on time might increase a members 'weight' by 100%, meaning they get twice as much incremental DKP on any transaction than a member who was late. Observe the result if Frank, James, and Sally were on time for the raid, while Laura and Paula were late:

You kill a boss, two epics drop, and are worth 20 DKP each. Sally and James loot an item. Sally and James are debted 20 DKP each totally 40 total DKP spent. This is redistributed to all other non-looting raiders evenly. 40 / (2 raiders (Frank) + 1 (Laura) + 1 (Paula)) = 40/4 = 10. The following post-kill balances are observed:

Frank: 50 + 2(10) = 70 DKP [observe Franks increased weight - He got double the kill's value]
James: 35 - 20 = 15 DKP [James was on time, but looted instead of gaining - His DKP is not affected by the increased weight from being on time]
Sally: 80 - 20 = 60 DKP [Same as James]
Laura: 100 + 1(10) = 110 DKP [Laura was late, therefore only receives the normal DKP value]
Paula: -20 + 1(10) = -10 DKP [Same as Laura]

Here we can see Frank was given the bonus for being on time, but the overall balance of DKP stayed the same. No inflation was observed.

Now this makes the calculation of DKP more difficult, but still allows management to offer non-kill incentives. If you have a DKP calculator, IMO this returns great investment on time spent. You can put these weight modifiers in to your calculations any time DKP is transacted, and the calculator does the work.

muulan
10-02-2007, 03:12 PM
I participate in our loot council and will have to admit there have been cases when I've disagreed with the outcome. However I still solidly believe in the model because the council are usually hardcore players who understand the game mechanics and are knowledgeable about itemization. They follow a very clear goal when assigning loot and generally have the guilds interest in mind. Fairness is very subjective Joanadark, and I will go into it more later. First, we award based on these criteria:

Attendance > Skill > Gear issues

Because our goal with loot distribution is to push progression, we focus on attendance first. What good will that purple do if its not present when we are doing our learning runs? Heres a case and point:

Player A is 2x skilled as player B (DPS, healing, tanking etc)
Player A = 50% attendance
Player B = 100% attendance

The fact is player B is always there, contributing to the guild in raids and pushing progression wearing those purples. Player A might put those same purples to better use, except he doesn't get to use them half the time so they are in effect useLESS as far as the guild is concerned half the time. This doesn't mean Player A never gets loot. I think alot of opponents of loot council make it sound like once an item drops and Player B gets it Player A will never see the item again. If Player A actually plays he'll get it in time in another raid.

I am tired of the single-player game attitude that so many people bring to WoW. Sure your tired from work and just wana come on to have fun. They become incensed at the audacity of their fellow raiders daring to infringe on their "fun time". But what obligates the other 9 people (or 24) to that end? Nothing really, we all pay our 15$ to enjoy this game. Every would-be-raider should realize that raiding is inherently a group endeavor; one cannot achieve success on such levels (even for most RL activities) through just individual effort. However, once you enter a group environment, the importance of individual fun is greatly diminished. Concessions of all sorts is a requirement for success in groups as well as the success of the group. Don't like it? Don't be trying to get purples then. Blizzard designed this game around group content, the greatest rewards go to those who are able and willing to cooperate (ie make sacrifices).

Fairness:
Now if you decide that group content is for you, then I would argue that its perfectly fair for the hardcore people to get first dibs on loot (note first dibs, not hogging all the loot like some would portray it). In most cases hardcore players value their casual counterparts and hope that they are having fun raiding with them. But let it be known that the "right" of casual players to have fun is not in any way an obligation of the guild or its hardcore players. I assume "having fun" means being first to get loot because thats the only time casuals complain. As an example I keep hearing from casuals:

"that [item] is so mine"
"well I need [item]..."
" is so gonna drop [B]my [item] tonight"

Sure loot talk goes on all the time. But when someone isn't there 100% of the time and use possessives endlessly, I know exactly whats going on. It may be that they value the loot more because they aren't there all the time to get it and its a big deal when something they want does drop since (being a much rarer event). But if they raided more it won't be such a big deal now would it. Can't do that? I totally understand, RL obligations come first. But then its your problem, not the guild's. The guild is not here for ME to have fun, not here for ME to get loot, not here for ME. All of the guildies are here for the guild and its progression. YOU are part of the guild and benefits indirectly, but YOU are not THE guild. Now guilds strive for every member to have fun and a great time, but be aware guilds aren't here to for your pleasure at the expense of everything else (neither should it be for the GM, although some guilds operate differently).

People tout Zero-Sum-DKP as the fairest system. I believe thats totally wrong. It is actually the most unfair, distributing the extra effort individuals make towards the guild and benefiting those who make the least. If I make no effort at all in a zero DKP system I stand to gain the most. I'll wait for my guild to do all the learning runs on gruul, gain DKP in kara farm, and then come in on down night to be the first to get loot. Those who make the most effort will in turn stand to "gain" the least. What you put into a guild is what you get out of it. Casuals think they deserve so much just because they came to the run, that is not how raiding works right now and probably will never be how it works. Having to wait in line for loot is not so bad. I wait all the time for tank loot even though I MT for the guild (GM's the other MT). I know that eventually it'll be my turn and then the next guy's after. Being in second or third is better than not getting in at all. Sure you can jump guilds constantly, skip the learning runs and go to a progressed guild whenever your pretty much geared up. Just gotta hope the new guild runs zero-sum is all lol.

Clifford
10-02-2007, 04:02 PM
We use a fairly simple /roll system that involves levels of priority and it works really well. Our objective is to reward people that raid often but still allow those that don't raid often a chance to win.

Level 1
Class > all. We use wow-loot.com class priorities.
Level 2
Rank 1 > Rank 2 > Rank 3.
- Rank 1 (full members that raid often)
- Rank 2 (full members that used to raid often but stopped and recently started again)
- Rank 3 (people that don't raid often or are new to the guild)
- Ranks are determined by the officers.

Rak
10-02-2007, 04:03 PM
Your argument that a player will always see the item again is very, very wrong. There are countless items that have only ever dropped for my guilds once, or never at all, while farming the raids for 1-2 years. It's part of the game.

Wilson
10-02-2007, 04:36 PM
Back in the day..on my UD warrior there was something called Loot Council where Raid Leader and GM and CLs decide who gets which

It worked good I was CL on my UD and I used to make a fuss about Overlord ring
if memory serves me right hehe that one off ZG

nethervoid
10-03-2007, 08:56 AM
People tout Zero-Sum-DKP as the fairest system. I believe thats totally wrong. It is actually the most unfair, distributing the extra effort individuals make towards the guild and benefiting those who make the least. If I make no effort at all in a zero DKP system I stand to gain the most. I'll wait for my guild to do all the learning runs on gruul, gain DKP in kara farm, and then come in on down night to be the first to get loot. Those who make the most effort will in turn stand to "gain" the least. What you put into a guild is what you get out of it. Casuals think they deserve so much just because they came to the run, that is not how raiding works right now and probably will never be how it works. Having to wait in line for loot is not so bad. I wait all the time for tank loot even though I MT for the guild (GM's the other MT). I know that eventually it'll be my turn and then the next guy's after. Being in second or third is better than not getting in at all. Sure you can jump guilds constantly, skip the learning runs and go to a progressed guild whenever your pretty much geared up. Just gotta hope the new guild runs zero-sum is all lol.

This is a good point, and something I hadn't thought of before. Raid nights that end in wipe after wipe, costing gold with no loot gained, garner no DKP from a zero sum system; while the off night Kara farm would. Maybe the weighting system I described above could help this out? Maybe you could also have a multiplier gained incrementally by the number of progression raids you attended, regardless if loot dropped or not?

Adjustments seem to be needed again, although every adjustment complicates the system further even though it also brings the system closer to being the most fair of all.

Gah.

Crimsonstorm
10-03-2007, 10:17 AM
While this isnt exactly what we do, it seems like it would be the best to me:

Bosses are separated into: Progression bosses (never killed before), Hard bosses (killed a couple times but not reliably, and its a struggle), and Farm bosses (not many wipes, you know its going to die). Once a boss is killed once it goes from progression to hard, after a couple more kills its farm.


DKP given is something like:

~4 for being on time and staying until the end of the raid.
1 per hour of the raid.

1 per valid ATTEMPT on a progression boss (not mispulls) + 2 if Killed
2 per Kill of a hard boss.
no bonus for farm bosses.


Lets say you have a 4 hour raid.
If its a learning raid with 8 valid attempts on a progression boss: 16 dkp
If its a run against a couple hard bosses: 12 dkp
Farm boss run: 8 dkp


This rewards more dkp for progression attempts. This is to counteract the fact that progression attempts are much more painful in terms of wiping, repair bills, and lack of loot generated. The farm boss run offers way more opportunities to spend that dkp. This way people dont just build dkp doing farm runs and then win all the loot once something is downed. The peopel doing the progression stuff get the loot first, and then the others get it afterwards.



Waitlisters would get 4 for being on time, and 1 per hour they stay available.

Siegetank
10-03-2007, 10:24 AM
Hey, you know, thats a pretty solid system. I may have to incorporate that into my guilds DKP system once we get there. I was in a previous guild where farm days where amazing attendance, but progression days were, well, not so good.

Promoting progression days through more DKP is simple, yet amazing IMO.
Dont know why it wasnt thought of earlier in my previous guilds.

Thanks for putting this down. Its a great system.

Rak
10-03-2007, 10:35 AM
What we did when we wiped on twin emps for two weeks straight was award bonus DKP for the first two times we got their life to a certain percentage. Like 50%, 25%, and 0%. The first two attempts/kills that got them to those percentages gave us a lot of bonus DKP, since we had spent so much time wiping.
If you give DKP based on nothing but attempts, it could be possible for a lame person to not try very hard so he can keep getting that DKP as you fail. In an ideal world, your guild wouldn't have people like that... but I think most do =/

Sangi
10-03-2007, 11:26 AM
I have a post a bit down thread here about this same issue and one on another board. My guild is a big mix of very casual players, light raiders and some retired 5-6 day a week raiders. We are trying to come up with a system that encourages participation in our limited raid schedule. Because of this we want to reward preparedness, progression and attendance.

I got a lot of standard DKP replies on my other thread. We would prefer not to use it due to the fact that new players never really get a chance in that system. Zero-Sum doesn't offer any wiggle room for rewarding anything outside of the loot that drops.

The most interesting one to me was EPGP, Earned Points Gear Points. It is a ratio based system. You track points earned (Earned Points) for raiding, showing up on time, wipes on progression bosses, stepping out for someone else to come in, donating 300 flasks to the bank. You track points for gear recieved (Gear Points) seperately. Each player then has a ratio of EP to GP. The ratios are then used in place of the amount of DKP you would have. The people with the larger ratio would have first choice on items. When they get a piece of loot their ratio goes down. Decay is done to both points, but mathematically this doesn't reduce your ratio. I believe that this is done to make current actions worth more than past actions.

I'm still trying to find some down sides to the EPGP system other than the intense amount of math involved. If any one sees some I would love to know. The benefits I see are basically tracking rewards and spending separately. Which allows you to assign values to things other than just raiding and loot directly.

nethervoid
10-03-2007, 01:32 PM
The only problems with the systems mentioned on this page are inflation. The direct down side to inflation is it becomes very hard for new members to ever get loot.

I wouldn't even start to tweak anything but a zero sum system. It is really too much work to try and keep a system balanced where actual purchase power is given out for anything other than a loot drop. You can give out potential for purchase power, but not actual purchase power. Even if you try to balance this by making an artificial decay system, the decay rate would have to be finely tuned to keep the overall purchace power of the guild static at all times, which would beg the question, why not just use zero sum? It would be more trouble than it's worth to try and force a non-static system into a static mold.

I know it seems egotistical, but I think the multiplier system is probably your best bet. You are rewarding non-loot situations (on-time, progression, etc) with purchase potential, not actual purchase power. Once the loot finally drops, the person can cash in on those IOUs if you will through the increased multiplier. The fine points of the multiplier system is balancing how much multiplier points you give out per incentivised practice. Being on-time might be worth +0.1 multiplier, while a progression attempt might be worth +0.2. It would all depend on how fast someone could rack up multiplier points.

Also remember the multiplier doesn't just increase the potential purchase power of the member who picks up the multiplier, it also basically decreases everyone else's potential at the same time. This is because you are basically taking DKP away from average joe (AJ), and giving it to joe superstar (JS). Instead of AJ and JS both getting say 10 DKP when an item is looted, JS might have a multiplier which gives him 12 while AJ is now getting 8, because in zero sum to give to one you must take from another, just like how someone's DKP spent on looting is given to those not looting.

The argument you will have on your hands from AJ is 'You're giving away too much for non-kills'. The ones who are not getting the bonus are always going to bitch. That's just the way it is. Early on I explained to my members that people who do the work of the guild or make the officer's lives easier by showing up on time, etc, automatically get a bigger share of the rewards of that work because they put in a greater investment than those who do not. That's life people. Give more; get more. But you have to explain that up front and to every potential recruit from the start. Set their expectations, so you can avoid the drama of 'Boo hoo! Me me me!' lol

Reap what you sow. It can't be wrong! It's in the Bible! lol

Satrina
10-03-2007, 03:54 PM
I implemented our DKP almost exactly as Crimsonstorm laid it out, just with higher numbers. I'm lazy, so I wrote an addon that handles loot bidding, and bases item point cost based on the item level, modified by slot. Since item costs are in the 70-130 range for tier4 loot, the point awards need to support that economy.

There are a few gotchas with the system:

1) It's open-ended, and so is subject to inflation as Nethervoid notes.
2) Tailored sets really mess things up. Nobody wants tier 4 cloth, so we have casters with a lot of points waiting for the tier 5 drops. This makes the inflation a bit worse, and lopsided to casters. I hate Blizzard so much because of the tailored sets.
3) You have to carefully balance how many points you give per hour/per kill/etc. Too little and nobody bids on anything but real upgrades. Too many and the system floods. You need to find the point where people don't mind picking up a slight upgrade, or buying a situational piece of loot.

The comment about new members not getting loot isn't really true, and actually isn't the point. Our new people scoop up tier 4 pretty fast when we retro farm those bosses (usually for their benefit anyway.) The problem most people perceive with a point system is, in fact, its greatest strength. People like loot councils because they're "fair" (and as noted, they are, until they are not. They're also slow as hell.) Point systems are not fair; they are impartial. A point system provides an orderly and predictable method to distribute loot, based on participation of its members. And so yes, new members get their t5 after the more senior members of the guild. That's as it should be, in general. It is not intended to, nor can it be, "fair". As soon as you start monkeying around with exceptions and to a lesser extent, class preferences you start reducing the impartiality of the system, and that's not a good thing. (We don't use class preferences; we presume our members know what is and is not useful for their character progression, and trust they won't buy stupidly.)

We did a zero-sum in the previous guild, and I hated it. No real means to reward people for extra effort. You have to re-zero the system occasionally to keep it actually zero sum (people leaving, people joining, etc.) It's great on paper, but a headache in practice. Open-ended is a headache, too. It's just less of a headache than zero-sum

Paruhdox
10-04-2007, 08:33 AM
This is where zero-sum dkp comes in handy. I was in a guild where the DKP value of every item was set. You were charged dkp based on how much it would upgrade you. So it didnt hurt you to upgrade when something was an "upgrade."

For example, Say Tier 2 boots are 50 dkp and i was already wearing them. I bid on Tier 2.5 boots which are 75 dkp. They take the difference and that is what im charged so i only pay 25 dkp for my boots. The nice thing about zero sum is that since i only paid 25 dkp for my boots if that was the only loot awarded that night that 25 dkp is split among the 40 other people and that is how much dkp the raid is worth.

Thats probably a little long winded and maybe confusing to some people but it is about the only dkp system i like. To many times have i seen people purposely not take MAJOR upgrades because they were waiting for a legendary drop or a staff of shadow flame.

Paruhdox
10-04-2007, 08:37 AM
This is a good point, and something I hadn't thought of before. Raid nights that end in wipe after wipe, costing gold with no loot gained, garner no DKP from a zero sum system; while the off night Kara farm would. Maybe the weighting system I described above could help this out? Maybe you could also have a multiplier gained incrementally by the number of progression raids you attended, regardless if loot dropped or not?

Adjustments seem to be needed again, although every adjustment complicates the system further even though it also brings the system closer to being the most fair of all.

Gah.

If your zero sum system does not incorperate a progression hourly rate thats just bad. There are lots of ways to make zero-sum systems work right you just have to do it.

Satrina
10-04-2007, 11:52 AM
One thing we did in zero-sum was charging people points for items crafted with cores (pre-TBC yep yep), other raid drops needed for crafting, and BOE items going to alts or people who weren't present at the raid. At the end of the month, those points spent would be allocated to people who farmed herbs, donated stuff, were entitled to bonuses, etc. It was a nightmare of accounting. It never would have covered the cost of an hourly progression rate for sure.

So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

Ciderhelm
10-07-2007, 07:03 AM
ETDKP
Here's what Eventide used. This was our final and most effective loot system, in large part designed by Nycthel. I am also including my Damocles Recruitment system.

Spending DKP:
1) Single bid, silent bid. Minimum bid depending on zone.
2) No class restrictions, no priorities, no seniority or attendance rules.
3) Tank Gearing was part of the system and used set prices.

Earning DKP:
1) DKP is earned on an hourly basis for all players in the raid or on standby.
2) DKP is earned for any boss kill, progression night, or any other award marker determined by the raid leader.
3) DKP is earned for turning in materials requested by the guild bank for progression. Prices are adjusted based on immediate and long-term guild goals.

Damocles Recruitment:
1) Applicants are voted on by all guild members. A single denial resulted in a denied application.
2) If a vote of denial is unreasonable then removal of the guild member who voted against the applicant would resolve the issue. This was never used.

What This Meant
Because the general membership was fundamentally accountable for the quality of new players in the guild, loot issues and loot drama did not occur because of the lack of restriction. It was understood that every member had a deep understanding of their role and geared accordingly.

Since the guild bank was able to cover all major consumables for encounters, the benefits of players earning DKP for farming spoke for itself. We were able to pull upwards of eighty flasks in twenty-four hour periods to handle unexpected progression. As certain consumables became well-stocked, we were able to reduce their reward and shift them to longer-term goals such as Shadow and Frost Protection potions.


Inflation in Currency
One of the greatest advancements in economic theory occurred in the struggle between the Spanish and British empires. Spain, like nearly every culture and civilization before it, considered gold to be wealth. Britain, on the other hand, argued that gold had nothing to do with wealth; wealth, they said, was what you had -- property, prosperity and a standard of living. DKP, it turns out, does not matter in quantity, but in what it gives you.

Inflation in DKP does not matter as long as the fundamental integrity of the system stays intact -- as long as a player is able to choose an arbitrary value of worth and assign it to an item. For example, if a member of a guild has 100 dkp and the item he or she wants is 10 dkp, it would be the same if she had 10,000 DKP and spends 1,000 DKP. The value does not matter.

However, that only holds true in a bid-based system, and can only remain true with an attached Minimum Bid for high-desirability, low-competition items (class-only items, for example).

nethervoid
10-08-2007, 08:00 AM
One thing we did in zero-sum was charging people points for items crafted with cores (pre-TBC yep yep), other raid drops needed for crafting, and BOE items going to alts or people who weren't present at the raid. At the end of the month, those points spent would be allocated to people who farmed herbs, donated stuff, were entitled to bonuses, etc. It was a nightmare of accounting. It never would have covered the cost of an hourly progression rate for sure.

So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

Well one way is to increase the person's multiplier as I stated previously. You could increase the multiplier for each boss attempt and/or once per hour by a fixed amount. At the same time you would have to figure out a decay rate for this multiplier, else it would be it's own inflation. Like once a member looted an item from a progression kill, their multiplier would be reset?

Another thing I was thinking about was how to combat DKP hoarding? I remember when I was in a guild raiding lower Planes of Power (EQ), and nobody would loot anything because they wanted to save up for the elemental molds (which work just like tier tokens - shocker!). So we had all this loot rotting because nobody wanted to spend their DKP on the minor upgrades that dropped for us for at least 2 months. It really sucked to watch all that loot rot.

Everyone knows of at least a handful of people who horde their DKP because they're waiting on the uber drop three bosses up in progression. This can be a very cyclic thing. If you're waiting for that item three bosses forward in progression, what will you be waiting for when you actually get to that boss? Three bosses ahead probably has even better loot. Endless cycle.

Maybe you could have a decaying modifier for DKP earned that resets when the member loots an item? This would encourage members away from hording. If they continue not to spend their DKP, they get less and less DKP awarded compared to their peers. The one downside to this is it hurts well-geared members who might not see many upgrades anyway (although arguably this shouldn't be a problem once a guild breaks into 5 man content [i think]).

*edit*

Ciderhelm, I see what you're saing with inflation not meaning a thing so long as you continually adjust the prices on loot or use a bid system, but it's a much harder system to control. Personally I like the bid system, but many others don't. *shrug* Not sure how to fix that issue. There are so many almost invisible factors that weigh in on how a guild treats loot. As was previously mentioned, too little DKP and you see lots of rot, too much DKP and people are bidding on things just to vendor it.

Ciderhelm
10-08-2007, 08:13 AM
The advantage of a silent bid system is very simple: people set their own prices.

If someone thinks an item is worth 1,000 DKP and they bid 1,000 DKP, if they win they pay exactly what they think it is worth.

If someone thinks that same item is worth 700 DKP and they bid 700 DKP, it's not worth as much to them as it is to the other player.

The item was worth more to the player who bid 1,000 than it was to the player who bid 700.

It completely eliminates issues of unfair pricing as well as any inter-personal loot drama. People have different motivations as far as gear improvements -- some were content to wait weeks after others to get their items and paid less as a result. Others see value in having an item first, or they really look forward to that one particular drop, and they focus their effort into it.

Lore
10-08-2007, 06:21 PM
I've never been much of a fan of varying price loot systems. They're just too easy to exploit, in my opinion. Even if someone doesn't mean to cheat the system, even if it's a "silent bid", they'll talk about what loot they want to get with their guildmates, and end up making deals like "Well I'll pass on the Bulwark of Azzinoth if you pass on the Faceplate of Impenetrable Darkness." End result: people bid lower, because they know they're getting the item. Then, when they're up for a Tier 6 token, they've got more DKP to work with.

Also, how do you deal with items that only one person wants? A lot of times loot that's dropped two or three times is obviously going to someone the next time it drops - how many DPS warriors and rogues do you bring to pick up melee weapons? Does the first person to get an item pay more than the last?

We use a flat-price system. It's really not that hard to set up; after you figure out how much you want to award people for attendance, wipes, boss kills, etc., you set a base amount for each slot. You can fluctuate from that base price depending on how good or bad an item is. There's still the saving of DKP for that one item you really want, the difference is just that it's the same across-the-board. If someone doesn't think the price of an item is right, they can bring it up with us then (and we can change it), or they can pass it to someone else.

Ciderhelm
10-08-2007, 06:47 PM
I've never been much of a fan of varying price loot systems. They're just too easy to exploit, in my opinion. Even if someone doesn't mean to cheat the system, even if it's a "silent bid", they'll talk about what loot they want to get with their guildmates, and end up making deals like "Well I'll pass on the Bulwark of Azzinoth if you pass on the Faceplate of Impenetrable Darkness." End result: people bid lower, because they know they're getting the item. Then, when they're up for a Tier 6 token, they've got more DKP to work with.
Was a non-issue. We had players who understood the need for integrity in the system.

Not to say that everyone was perfect and there were no loot whores; just that the people who tried to make deals were always trumped by the people who didn't. The one case pre-TBC where an entire class jumped into it (Paladins) resulted in two guild removals. That was mid-Blackwing Lair.


Also, how do you deal with items that only one person wants? A lot of times loot that's dropped two or three times is obviously going to someone the next time it drops - how many DPS warriors and rogues do you bring to pick up melee weapons? Does the first person to get an item pay more than the last?
Minimum bid exists for this reason. Each zone had a minimum bid (successively larger than the last tier zone) which was high enough that players who didn't want an item for serious use wouldn't bid.

The first person always paid more than the last. There was no question for us that the first drop of an item was more valuable than a drop two months later because a) you get use out of the item for those two months where other players do not and b) a first drop has more prestige and may be a major goal for a particular player.

Armstrong
10-10-2007, 02:30 PM
So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

I'm not sure that directly answers the question, but back when we used DKP (zero-sum), we would apply a tax on earned DKP, which would go to a "practice pool", and from there was then distributed to members who were present for progression raids.

muulan
10-10-2007, 03:55 PM
I was reading about loot policy in other forums and came across someone's comment which really looked interesting. His argument, while not original in its idea but very much so in its context, was that loot systems reflect the guilds (and the guild leadership's) view on political leanings. It was a short post but my interpretation is that loot systems are basically a mirror version of many forms of practiced governance. In the end, the question is not "which system is better?" but "what is the mission of my guild?" That is what determines the success of any loot system (gov form) in your guild. You can consider this post an extrapolation of my previous one.

Maximize Fairness : Communism/Socialism
Like its respective government, Zero-sum DKP and other similar derivatives have one aim. To equalize loot to every member of the guild, eventually equalizing gearing, thereby maximizing the fairness factor. The advantages are great when every member of the guild contributes equally or are "friends" that can overlook unequal effort. But I doubt in practice, this system holds up without some major (creative) modifications. An appeal to mediocrity will ultimately fail if guild success is measured by progression. There is no real incentive in this system to "go the extra mile", as an result learning runs, guild banks, and other areas of guild activity requiring individual extra effort suffer accordingly. Those who do more for the guild under this system are punished (have the least to gain) and those who do the least are rewarded (have the most to gain). I say the least have the most to gain because one can just farm DKP position in 10mans (or whatever 25man the guild has on farm) and get top loot in the progression 25mans without ever having to wipe on one "learning run". Taxes and adjustments on zero-sum systems will never allow you to be two items ahead of anyone else, any lead you build will be wiped with just 1 item looted.
Just like in its real life counterparts, over-achievers in this system feel ostracized and flee the system to one that will "reward them appropriately". Mass exoduses of talent from communist states into the US is very comparable to that "hardcore raiders" leaving zero-sum guilds. Granted some don't leave because they are rewarded in non-loot areas (officership, positions of influence). Modifications to the zero-sum system (something mathematically very complex but possible) also exist to give those pushing progression their "fair" share.
However most guilds with a successful and long term implementation of zero-sum DKP are focused on the social aspects of WoW (rather than progression). From that perspective this system excels at its design, promoting friendly members who don't just see you as competition for loot. Casual guilds have also implemented this system to great effect in karazhan. But once progression reaches a level where it actually requires effort and sacrifice (heavy investment in time) in the much harder 25mans, Zero-sum usually "breaks down". Breaks down as in the guild transitions to a pure DKP system, splits into casual vs hardcore raiders, or drops the (few but present) parasites who want "real" epics (SSC/TK) without the effort.

Maximize Reward : Free-market Capitalism
Traditional forms of DKP point accumulation and its various inflation fighting derivatives are based off of this model. The goal here is to reward based on merit, thus driving guild members to progress (attend raids, contribute to the guild bank) through their personal greed.
However, as with any capitalistic society a gap quickly develops between the haves and the have nots. DKP-poor members (either new or casual) quickly find themselves not getting loot because DKP-rich members accumulate such a lead ahead of them. Then the poor fellows' only recourse for any epix would be those that trickles down from hardcore raiders so fat with loot that crumbs of purples manage to escape their greedy paws. Come to think of it, that analogy reminds me of Reganomics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics). On the other hand most guilds have a backbone set of raiders that probably have 2x DKP of any regular member because they raid and contribute twice (if not more) to the guild. If DKP is an unbiased representation of contribution, then these hoarding, top hat-wearing, miserly bastards have every damn right to twice the loot cause they worked twice as hard for it. Guilds whose goals are focused on progression rather than being welfare programs (seriously though, if you want welfare epics go to the arena) promote this form of governance; well at least the DKP-rich ones do. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on where you stand), unlike the exploited masses of most unregulated capitalist societies in real life (ie Chinese gold farmers), those who are at the bottom end of the economic ladder can just /gquit and join the zero-sum communes where no one will be better than them.
Losing members is bad for business... I mean guilds. So over time guild leadership (ie DKP-rich robber barons) developed systems which gave the illusion of fairness. Like DKP taxes and DKP decay. These certainly gave targeted benefits to the poorer member of the guild and builds tolerance of guild members towards unequal loot distribution. But don't be fooled, at the heart of all of these varied systems is the drive towards unequal loot distribution. Accumulated DKP systems are not about fairness and and never will be fair, their goal is to entice members to push progression above all else. In worst case scenarios guildies are no longer helpful friends but competing enemies, eventually leading to guild splits.

Leave It up to Chance: Anarchy
I am surprised blizzard's built-in loot system is one based on random chance. Although it adds excitement and entertainment value to looting, there are downsides. When drops are the result of months of daily effort by more than 25 people, its no longer "fun" to leave things to chance. But that is exactly what blizzard leaves us with. /Rolls are not completely random when we talk about gearing. The common argument is that the more raids you attend the more rolls you'll be able to participate in. Yet the lack of predictability is a poor substitute for promotion of guild mission and purpose. Weighted rolls might seem like a better system, but in the end randomness still exists for something that has no need to be random. I don't hear many guilds practicing /rolls for loot in 25mans and beyond. My theory is that the use of /roll stems from laziness on the part of leadership to implement a "real" loot system. With the help of so many UI's out there, there is really no reason to /random anymore other than Kara alt runs.

mattdeeze
10-12-2007, 06:25 PM
This is my first post on Tanking and Melee Reference. While i dont think my guild is ready yet for loot managment, (currently just starting Kara):eek: I do think that basing loot values on the number ranked for an item in relation to item level is not a good start. Loot values are more of an exponetial of item level. This will require math that is beyond me, as there will have to be a division factor that may approach the realm of calculus (which is beyond me). But i do know that the reletive value of an item to members is much more than the item ranking. Most of us already have items that are ranked level 100 or higher. so to price items based directly upon item level simply doesnt make sence. As an item that will offer a modest improvement will cost approx. 95%+ of the cost of a extremely awesome highly desireable piece. A simple way to establish a value on an item is to square the item level and divide by 100 (or whatever amount your guild economy can afford). I do realize that this is an over-simplification of the math involved, but that is what you math majors who do such a great job on this site are for. Just my two cents. Mattdeeze

mattdeeze
10-12-2007, 06:29 PM
Edit: may take a subtraction before or after the square to further normalize the value of a specific item.

Lavache
10-15-2007, 02:56 PM
Spending DKP:
3) Tank Gearing was part of the system and used set prices.


can you go into some more detail on this cider? i like your system and am working on revising our dkp to be more efficient and hopefully equitable for everyone and am going to try and give the silent bid a spin to see how it works.

i dont want things to be unfair to other class if tanks are paying less, especially as a tank & gm - i know someone will somehow feel slighted by this and get pissy.

Andenthal
10-16-2007, 06:55 PM
My $1.05..

In my old guild, we used a variation of Zero-Sum DKP. I say variation, because it was possible to earn points outside of a boss kill. It worked very well, until the inevitable inflation occurred.

The guild leader was not a great strategist or theorist by any means, but he did have a REALLY good way to curb the inflation problem.

Most items had a value between 15 and 25 points. The officers decided that no one raider should ever need above 100 points. So, the first of every month (we called this tax day =p) we multiplied everyone's points by a number. If the highest raider had 110 DKP, we would multiply everyone's DKP by .9, to bring the highest below 100. After time, we decided to use the same number every month to stay consistent - I think it was .85

Everyone stayed in the same order, and the same relation to one another. If you had 10% more DKP than the next highest raider, you still had 10% more after "tax day".

Taelas
10-19-2007, 01:36 PM
I like the system you posted, Ciderhelm -- I'd also like to know more about how tank gearing worked.

Ciderhelm
10-29-2007, 06:59 AM
I like the system you posted, Ciderhelm -- I'd also like to know more about how tank gearing worked.

wow I didn't even see this response 'til I got a PM request for it.


Tank gearing was a pre-determined price for pre-determined loot. Our DKP manager Nycthel (Rogue) decided the prices, usually by comparing what people would realistically pay for a first drop and upping it 10-20%. We posted the list of items that would be Main Tank geared as soon as possible when we got into a new zone.

MT Gearing applied to myself and my off-tank. During Ahn'Qiraj, it also applied to two Warlocks for Twin Emperors (which we wound up not using the Warlocks for Twin Emps, just Warriors). During Naxxramas, it applied to eight Warriors to get them 4-piece Dreadnaught for handling Four Horsemen.

Resistance pieces were treated equally across the raid, though depending on the pieces tanks would get them first. Resistance drops were free and assigned based off attendance.

Legendary items never had a solid system attached to them. By and large it was a /roll among high-attendance members who'd been in the guild 4 months. Thunderfury was limited by role (tanking) but was also a /roll, which is the reason I wound up getting mine deep in Naxx and not earlier.

nethervoid
10-29-2007, 07:45 AM
Maximize Fairness : Communism/Socialism
Like its respective government, Zero-sum DKP and other similar derivatives have one aim. To equalize loot to every member of the guild, eventually equalizing gearing, thereby maximizing the fairness factor. The advantages are great when every member of the guild contributes equally or are "friends" that can overlook unequal effort. But I doubt in practice, this system holds up without some major (creative) modifications. An appeal to mediocrity will ultimately fail if guild success is measured by progression. There is no real incentive in this system to "go the extra mile", as an result learning runs, guild banks, and other areas of guild activity requiring individual extra effort suffer accordingly. Those who do more for the guild under this system are punished (have the least to gain) and those who do the least are rewarded (have the most to gain). I say the least have the most to gain because one can just farm DKP position in 10mans (or whatever 25man the guild has on farm) and get top loot in the progression 25mans without ever having to wipe on one "learning run". Taxes and adjustments on zero-sum systems will never allow you to be two items ahead of anyone else, any lead you build will be wiped with just 1 item looted.
Just like in its real life counterparts, over-achievers in this system feel ostracized and flee the system to one that will "reward them appropriately". Mass exoduses of talent from communist states into the US is very comparable to that "hardcore raiders" leaving zero-sum guilds. Granted some don't leave because they are rewarded in non-loot areas (officership, positions of influence). Modifications to the zero-sum system (something mathematically very complex but possible) also exist to give those pushing progression their "fair" share.
However most guilds with a successful and long term implementation of zero-sum DKP are focused on the social aspects of WoW (rather than progression). From that perspective this system excels at its design, promoting friendly members who don't just see you as competition for loot. Casual guilds have also implemented this system to great effect in karazhan. But once progression reaches a level where it actually requires effort and sacrifice (heavy investment in time) in the much harder 25mans, Zero-sum usually "breaks down". Breaks down as in the guild transitions to a pure DKP system, splits into casual vs hardcore raiders, or drops the (few but present) parasites who want "real" epics (SSC/TK) without the effort.

There are a lot of flaws in this section of loot theory. First, Socialized/Communist loot is in the form of loot council. A council decides who gets the loot, and often those who have the most to gain from an upgrade (those who are not raiding as often) get quite a bit more loot per capita. On the other hand (although your theory states the opposite), a zero-sum system awards raiders each time they raid, which means if you put more raids in, you get more loot. That is not a communistic system.

I agree something must be added to the system to promote progression runs and also for those who farm consumables etc for the guild. This, I think, is the only flaw of the system. Yes it is mathmatically complicated. Yes we have computers. Use them. Write some code to do the work for you and BAM! it's no longer an issue.

See the real problem behind a non-zero system is inflation. It's too difficult to build an inflating system for which you can balance the purchase power of your core raiders against your not-so-core or new members. If you give too much purchase power, your core raiders buy up everything, leaving the other 50% of your raiders with little to show for their work. This really can hurt the guild by turning off new members. They can be pushing, in many cases (I've been this guy), harder than core raiders for months without even one single drop, which is just horrible and is just begging for that hard worker to go elsewhere. The opposite end of the spectrum (deflation) makes certain everyone's too poor to loot an item. The latter rarely happens as it's much more obvious when deflation is a problem rather than inflation.

I think the perfect set up is a zero-sum system with benefits for progression and farmers, married with a silent bid system to allow people to pay what they think an item is worth. All the greatest pieces of all systems put into one. (notice none of the loot council systems are in there *snickers*)

Spiritreaper
10-31-2007, 02:55 PM
Being the GM and raid leader of what could be termed a "casual" raid guild I am considering changing our loot system to a DKP based system. I have always been involved with guilds using loot council so my experience with DKP is non-existant.

I am considering the change due to some attendance and consistancy issues that I am trying to correct. I want to be able to incent consistency and farming for progression and I don't see an easy way loot council can handle that.

I'm looking for resources on DKP, item value formulas, system specifics etc so that I can review and work out a system that I think would work for my guild. Starting from zero knowledge and being able to make the right choice is what I am after. This thread has been a great start so far, can anyone offer additional advice?

Brucimus
10-31-2007, 03:14 PM
I am a in a casual raid guild and we still use need greed pass and we are TOTALLY against any DKP systems. Most of us a pretty close and we dont fear ninjaing or loot whoring. I'm not sure what we will do when we start 25 mans but i think we be fine

Lavache
10-31-2007, 03:17 PM
Being the GM and raid leader of what could be termed a "casual" raid guild I am considering changing our loot system to a DKP based system. I have always been involved with guilds using loot council so my experience with DKP is non-existant.

I am considering the change due to some attendance and consistancy issues that I am trying to correct. I want to be able to incent consistency and farming for progression and I don't see an easy way loot council can handle that.

I'm looking for resources on DKP, item value formulas, system specifics etc so that I can review and work out a system that I think would work for my guild. Starting from zero knowledge and being able to make the right choice is what I am after. This thread has been a great start so far, can anyone offer additional advice?

there is a post in the guild relations forum on the WoW boards that covered a lot of that. we instated a modified version of the system Cider posted and it was very well received and so far has worked pretty well.

kryonik
10-31-2007, 03:27 PM
This is the system we used in my old guild.

On our guild forums, you would list your top 10 (or 15 or whatever) desired loot drops, in order from most desired to least desired. No DKP technically, but we gave out "raid hours" or whatever they were. So if you went to a raid one night and it took 2 hours, you got 2 raid hours.

If an item drops, whoever has that item listed the highest gets it. If two people have the item listed at the same place, the one who has more raid hours gets it and gets raid hours deducted. If they both have the same, they roll.

Ciderhelm
11-01-2007, 12:39 AM
Not to discourage guilds who are successfully using tank gearing -- don't stop if it's helping -- but my feelings on it have changed.

Though Tank Gearing helped our guild early on with the 40-man raids, particularly as we moved from a casual guild to a raiding guild, I no longer feel it is necessary for maximum progression. It won't hurt, but it may not help. This is especially true with the 25-man Burning Crusade dynamics, where rules designed for 72-man Everquest raids may simply be dated.

Ceravantes
11-01-2007, 06:15 AM
The idea of "Main Tank Gearing" is dated, but I would not go so far as to say that it is not to the benefit of progression to gear Tanks over other classes. In my guild we use a tank gearing system, we have 3 tanks who take tiered loot first, myself our prot pally and a feral druid, we work out our best upgrades amongst ourselves and decide on a loot order for non tiered pieces.

While this has been the basic idea behind the loot system for awhile, we have just recently went to a DKP system, similar to the one Ciderhelm posted, which has helped to increase participation in donations to the guild bank for consumables as well as attendance issues.

Kream
11-08-2007, 02:34 PM
Ni Karma
Complicated explanation

I've seen a few loot systems used throughout my time in EQ (although not this one) and Ni Karma impresses me as avoiding most of the problems caused by loot systems: collusion and inflation. The background math is somewhat complex but as a raider all you need to know is if you need it.. karma, if you just want it, roll.

Satrina
11-08-2007, 03:21 PM
I've always failed to see why people see "inflation" as a flaw of a point system. All a point system is, like any other loot distribution method, is a means to give some method to the order that loot is awarded. Nothing more. Having lots of points is just an indicator that you're in line for loot when it drops. As a new member of a guild, sure it can be disheartening to see someone with a hundred or a thousand more points than you. They only need one of the drop, too. You'll get yours in the order that your loot distribution method prescribes.

Which brings you to hoarding, a common argument. The solution is simple - if people are hoarding points, you aren't awarding enough of them. The number of points you award is just as arbitrary as how many points an item costs. The absolute number of points for anything is as meaningless as it is arbitrary. Work in one point increments for all it matters, you'll still have the same relative order that loot is awarded in.

The only possible flaw currently in using points is tailored items. All it means is that your tailors who patiently waited for everyone else to get geared as well as they are will get first crack at actual upgrades. Is that so bad? Nope.

Anansi™
11-08-2007, 03:41 PM
It would really depend on what content you are doing. If the majority of the guild is seeing inflated DKP then I would imagine people are needing less or are stacking DKP for that one item to just blow out bidding, but I would imagine it would more likely be the first issue. Farming same content long enough and you will eventually see inflated DKP or if you are just unlucky with drops.

Lilie
12-07-2007, 11:33 AM
I'm still pretty new to understanding loot systems and am currently trying to find on that fits a new start-up guild. I would love to learn more about the silent bid system and how it is implemented, technically. How many points do you award for the various raid events (i.e. on-time, 1st hour, 2nd hour, farming requests, bosses downed)? What is a good guide to setting the minimum bids you speak of for loot in the various raid zones? I'm sure it varies depending on how your system is running, but if you guys know of a good starting place that would be excellent.

One question I did have was whether this system still incorporates the zero-sum idea of splitting the "value" of dropped items into DKP spread across the raid members who did not receive that item. I'm a little confused as to how this works. Also, what would be the guildlines on bidding for an item if you did not have enough DKP? I've read of systems that allow you to dip into negative points but when do you make that call that that particular allowance is inappropriate?

Cider- If I understand your system correctly, there is no loot priority considered for tanks or healers or members vs. guests?

Lavache
12-07-2007, 03:02 PM
I'm still pretty new to understanding loot systems and am currently trying to find on that fits a new start-up guild. I would love to learn more about the silent bid system and how it is implemented, technically. How many points do you award for the various raid events (i.e. on-time, 1st hour, 2nd hour, farming requests, bosses downed)? What is a good guide to setting the minimum bids you speak of for loot in the various raid zones? I'm sure it varies depending on how your system is running, but if you guys know of a good starting place that would be excellent.

One question I did have was whether this system still incorporates the zero-sum idea of splitting the "value" of dropped items into DKP spread across the raid members who did not receive that item. I'm a little confused as to how this works. Also, what would be the guildlines on bidding for an item if you did not have enough DKP? I've read of systems that allow you to dip into negative points but when do you make that call that that particular allowance is inappropriate?

we are using a slightly modified version of cider's DKP and have been for a few months now. i really havent noticed any issues with it and frankly really like how its worked out. big items generally go for 75-150 DKP which balances out people that may not have seen a drop in a few weeks. generally i dont let people go negative unless they are the only person bidding on the item - and then i would rather someone get an upgrade than add another shard to the bank.



DKP for turning in bank items:

Maximum of 10 dkp / week for turn ins

primal fire / water / life (hydross gear)
elementium / felsteel (have loads of fel iron already)
1 dkp per primal
potions / potion mats / flasks needed for raiding (mana, health, agility, ironskin etc)
1 dkp per stack

we currently are in need of more fire than anything else. i currently have enough motes to make 1 full set of each resist set.



Raiding:

5 dkp for being on time at the zone
1 dkp per farm boss
10 dkp per new boss (1st kill)
5 dkp new boss (kills 2-4)
1 dkp per 30 minutes (progression content)
1 dkp per 60 minutes (farm content)
5 dkp for staying the duration of the raid

Karazhan receives no DKP bonuses or rewards.

Equal values for being on wait list (WL) & outside the zone & ready to go

Bidding:

Karazhan (tier 4 tokens) - 10 dkp minimum bid
Gruul / Magtheridon - 10 dkp minimum bid
SSC / The Eye - 20 dkp minimum bid
Hyjal / Black Temple - TBD

1) Single bid, silent bid. Minimum bid depending on zone. Bid what you are willing to pay for the drop


the above is taken directly from our guild site and i believe outlines everything pretty well. generally if something is going for the minimum value its because there is only one person bidding or someone with little to no dkp. as far as im concerned if you are in the raid and have earned the DKP its yours to spend - recruit, raid member or officer. there have been rare occasions when we have had to bring people in due to shortages and we generally are upfront with them and say - we use dkp, anything that is not picked up with DKP will go to an open roll for guests, if they dont want it then its sharded. frequently these people are in guilds that arent as far along and they are happy to see new content and new ways of doing things.

Lilie
12-07-2007, 07:16 PM
Thanks Lavache. Since we would be new to initiating a DKP system, how would you suggest kicking it off? Would those initial drops just be minimum bids? I'm curious how to actually get this thing going.

Ceravantes
12-07-2007, 08:00 PM
We started everyone off at the highest minimum bid, that way everyone would have enough points to take any 1 item that dropped without going into the negatives.

nethervoid
12-10-2007, 03:39 PM
Inflation is only a problem if the item prices are a set amount. If it's a bid system, it doesn't matter because as the relative DKP/player goes up, so do bid amounts. What does suck in a non-bid, non-zero system, if you have too much inflation you get a handful of people getting every drop whenever they want. That's not a big deal if they are your core membership, but what can happen is you get new people who are the new core as older people start to show up less often (burnout - boredom), but since the older group have a big pile of DKP, they can still show up half as much as new people, and get the drops for long periods of time.

I've had this happen. I was in a guild and had 100% attendance for three months, but still was last on the list for drops, even though others had about 50-66% attendance during that time. I seriously got zero loot for three months. No upgrades. And we were almost done with the content at that point, about ready to move on, which means I was two zones of gear behind on progression nights.

This is because there was WAY too much DKP being passed out on every raid, raids which had little loot drop, and even on raids where all loot was rotting. So the core had a mound of DKP saved when we hit areas that were dropping upgrades (upgrades over what you could buy on the auction house), and so nobody who came into the guild even three months or even more back could get anything for a couple to three months after we hit content dropping stuff people actually wanted. Shortly after that the guild disbanded. Yay. All that time raiding, and I was no better off, gear-wise.

You must balance how much DKP your giving and the cost your charging per item. If you give out 150 DKP per raid, let's say, and 6 items are dropping per boss, each worth 150 ea, yeah you've got a problem. Hell if that was the case for me as a core raider, I would loot stuff just to shard it and keep the shard. I could almost get a piece every other raid just to DE, and still stay on top of the pile. If it was a bid system, there's no way I could do that because prices would fluctuate based on the availability of DKP, just like a normal monetary system. In the fixed price system, if I've got like 8000 DKP saved up from other raids, it's going to take a new member like 6 months to catch up to me.

So you either use zero sum, OR you use a bid system. To me those are the two easiest and fairest ways (I prefer the bid system). Anything else just seems like it would leave room for problems. The key to DKP is you can only fix ONE side of the DKP equation. If you fix loot costs, you then give out DKP based on the DKP spent that evening, which becomes a variable (zero-sum), or you can just fix raid 'payments' and leave value of loot variable (bid system). As soon as you fix both loot cost and raid payments, you're screwed.

*edit - I mean 6 items per raid. You're giving out 4x the DKP your members are spending.

Otopa
12-27-2007, 01:14 AM
Other method of curbing hoarding/inflation is to split DKP. One DKP pool for T4 zone, another DKP pool for T5 zone, T6, mebbe DKP pool for ZA, etc etc etc. Splitting is actually a hidden DKP "reset" - once you progress into new area, everyone starts with zero points.

lorelye
04-26-2008, 03:10 AM
my 2 cents...

Karazan: If you are a Karazan guild, you need a loot system for it. If you are a 25man raid guild, you do not need loot systems for 10-mans anymore and can treat these just like any other instance.

Loot Council: Hurts recruiting. Veteran WoW players have all sat through an unfair "loot council" and are not going to join your guild if you use it. Maybe you're a very fair guy, but they have no way to know that prior to having spent months with you. It will kill your progression because you eliminated half of the better recruits you might have gotten.

DKP: Is for hardcore guilds only. The reason is that it is a subtraction based system & heavily weighted towards high attendance. The new guy will not win any "contested" items for a very long time, and almost every item will go to the guys with 100% attendance. It should only be used in guilds with required attendance. Otherwise you're going to have high turnover among the part-timers, who will quickly discover they cannot win anything.

EPGP: For use by hybrid guilds in 25man content. This is a division-based system, which allows new members & part-time raiders to establish some priority, based on the hours they've spent. A raider who raids twice as often, will win exactly twice as often (unlike DKP where he will always win). If a new guy comes to all the raids for a week or two, or a veteran comes to half the raids every week, they can win, based exactly on the number of hours they've spent. To avoid mathematical issues, it must be set up right, see my post: Which numbers to use, anaylsis - epgp-discuss | Google Groups (http://groups.google.com/group/epgp-discuss/browse_thread/thread/b7eb66842a4ccac1/1e9b8ee0ddbc86a5)

Roll based systems: I don't like it, because too much is based on luck, rather than commitment. What if your best healer happens to be an unlucky roller? I had to leave a guild over this once. I lost 8 epics to the same guy, then got harassed because his DPS was higher. Yeah fun.

I don't know about zero sum, but it strikes me as a method of trying to turn DKP into a system that is workable in a hybrid guild, and rather not likely to work. Could be wrong <shrug>.

It is definitely worth spending some hours to run mathematical simulations of how your loot system is actually going to work out. Make sure your loot system matches the type of guild you have.

Quote Ciderhelm: "Loot distribution is not about fairness; it is about incentive."
My thought is that, for many players, fairness is the incentive. Same thing. If they know the system is fair, they'll show up. If it's not, they won't.

;)

Oh PS - Otopa, if you split based on t5 vs t6 content, then you will kill the guy who sat through all your t5 content even though he didn't need a thing from there. Your best geared players, who spent too much time running the others through the content, will lose all their points? Ouch.

minrog
06-10-2008, 10:49 AM
I don't think I could go back to a DKP or Officer (loot council) decided system. Using loot as an "incentive" or having it be some deal where the same 5 guys get all the loot because they obviously deserve it more than the other 20 doesn't fly.

Zero sum DKP is terrible for a lot of reasons. My biggest gripe is the 80 item lead these guys build up, they drop down to casual and have the ability to keep gear priority until the next XPAC comes out. Terrible. Not to mention if something is a sidegrade or a .02% upgrade nobody is willing to bid on it and you're losing maximum raid effectiveness.

We switched to a modified system sort of like the Ni Karma/Suicide Kings method and it's been wonderful. Our loot takes about 20 seconds per item to distribute and you get about a 3 item memory on your bids so some loser who took the guild through kara doesn't get all your BT drops 8 months later. :P

Evelaula
06-10-2008, 03:46 PM
Interesting discussion, reminds me of why me and most the officers/good members left the 'hardcore' raiding style of our previous guild.

DKP was an endless argument. Especcially with new instances and people switching mains. Do you allow dkp transferes? Do new instances run off the same dkp system? Should expemplary attendance in the last teir allow extra rewards in the next teir?

People would flat out not bid on upgrades because they wanted the big sword of the big dagger. We'd end up de'ing good quality gear and the raid inevitably suffers, as gear upgrades arent taken.

Progression slows people get emo over loot. Bitching and moaning, officer forums spent more time debating 'fairer' loot systems than concentrating on getting the guild to progress. And as the raid leader it was just a hassle, i wanted to raid content not deal with why X thought Y getting Z was unfair.

The guild we made, only runs kara and za as a choice, and everything is jsut over vent 'Oi XXXX you want that shield?' etc. So easy and drama free.

I guess then the end comment is that the loot system used, and how smoothly it runs, are totally dependant on the guild culture and the people who make up the guild.

-eve

Sangi
06-20-2008, 09:22 AM
We are a casual raiding guild with about 3 nights a week and 10 hours over those nights. We have been using a Nikarma system with a few tweaks to it and it has been wonderful. For those that dont know NiKarma is a roll plus bonus system. When you win an item when using your bonus you lose half your karma. It tends to be a hybrid of DKP and SuicideKings. It also trends similarly to zero sum DKP systems.

We decided that we wanted a few things out of our loot system. First and foremost was that it was fair and deemed to be fair by every one that uses it. The other is that it rewards attendance but doesn't lock new people out from receiving items. The items had to goto the proper specs/roles. And finally we wanted to encourage people to take items and not horde their karma.

To determine who can get what loot we use the Khaliban's loot list at wow-loot. Its not perfect but its out there for every one to see before the raids. And it mechanizes the decisions on who can roll on what items (go go podcasts). With the Ace2 mod that adds the lists to the tool tips its amazingly easy to do these lookups.

The NiKarma mod tracks almost all of the nitty gritty details, except for the few changes we made to the system. We cap points at 200. The cap is easy to reach. At 10 points per boss and 5 for showing up and finsihing the raid 3-4 runs of SSC will get you there. Tier pieces always use your bonus and you lose half your karma. We use a new DB for every raid instance. This is to prevent people from coming to our farms and getting a lot of karma and not coming to the progression nights. It rewards the people who work the content.

It seems to be working well. Every one that has joined says that its fair and that they like it. And I haven't heard any complaints yet.

Creampuf
06-20-2008, 11:41 AM
I was a guild officer in another game, in a fairly hard core raiding guild. The problem we ran into was that we allowed for casual gamers as members as well. We thought DKP would be a great way to "progress."

What we ended up doing was almost losing the guild, as the hard-core, 7-night a week gamers quickly left the rest of the guild behind in terms of gear. So we had two tiers of members, those ready to move on to higher and higher content, and those who were barely adequately geared for the content we were trying to leave.

Except we still needed those people to do the higher end raids. The upper-echelon could get so far ahead of the rest of the guild before, because of the sheer need for numbers, the casual gamers were "holding them back."

The more casual people (who also tended to be the most mature and stable members as they tended to be adults with real lives) realized that they were getting shafted as their contributions were not as valued as the hard-core players, and decided to start leaving.

The officers quickly tried to fix things by adding multipliers for people who declared up front a maximum raid attendance for a week . . . giving a bonus to people who played as much as their lives would allow, even if that was less than full-time. But it didn't work.

The guild fractured, with many of the lower geared people leaving for more causal raiding guilds with "fairer" systems of loot, and many of the higher geared people leaving for guilds set for higher content.

The lesson I took away from this was simple: progression isn't progression if it doesn't involve the whole guild (or at least all those members who raid during whatever their play-window is) moving forward together. DKP doesn't meet that goal simply because it prefers the 7-day a week, "what do you mean an MMO isn't a real life?" gamer over everyone else.

Guilds who want mature, balanced members who can only raid one or two nights a week need to think long and hard about what un-intended consequences their proposed system can bring to over-all guild balance and membership. Casual gamers, for example, rarely have a problem with being less-well geared than the hard-core guy. But they do have a problem with not being able to have an even chance at an upgrade on the raids they can attend.

Krashtork
06-30-2008, 01:57 PM
I am suprised that no one has really jumped into talking about Suicide Kings.

I have recently left a guild that swore by SK. For those that don't know SK is basically a list based loot system. Basically, you write up catagories of loot, (I.E. Priest warrior druid T4, rogue shaman pally T4, Mallet of Tides, ect) and then have one main SK list for items that could go to a multitude of classes (I.E. Caster necklace that could go to warlocks, shadowpriests, mages, boomkins, and shamans). After the catagories are established you /roll for each person who fits into said catagory. In the last guild we had a priest warrior druid T4 token catagory for example. The GM /rolled for us and assigned our position on the list. I was rolled in as #2 spot. When the t4 shoulders dropped, the person above me had the option of passing, which left him on top of the list, or taking the item by "suiciding" and being put on the bottom of the list. Lets say he passed. In that case i would have the same options he had. Lets say i took it, well i drop down to the bottom of the list, and #3 becomes #2 and so on. #1 remains at the top.

I.E: Before the SK

1 - some guy
2 - me
3 - some other guy
4 - random chick who gets hit on a lot

I.E: After the SK
1 - some guy
2 - some other guy
3 - random chick who gets hit on a lot
4 - me

Of all the loot systems i've seen, I have found this to be the most fair. But it offers lousy incentive to raid if you're at the bottom of the list. After all, in the past example, random chick moved up in the SK list and wasn't even neccisarily in attendance. People would abuse this and not raid until they moved up high enough on the list.

Plus this system really gives and takes. It's fun being on top, but it sucks getting screwed out of loot without any option to take it.

We limited the ability for new people to get loot over new people by only putting comitted raiders on the SK list. Unfortunantly our GM's definition of "comitted raider" lacked.

The other major downside to Sk is that it does not reward people for work outside of raids. It also doesn't reward them for raiding if we don't kill anything.

I think SK is a great loot system for a casual guild, but for hardcore guilds it does not promote progression.

Wulfhere
07-01-2008, 11:31 AM
That's not quite how SK works. If "random chick who gets hit on a lot" (RC) was not in attendance to that particular raid, the SK list should have looked like:

1.some guy
2.some other guy
3.me
4.RC

Let's say she was in attendance so that the list looked like this after you took loot

1.some guy
2.some other guy
3.RC
4.me

Now let's say next raid, RC does not attend but the other 3 do. Loot drops that "some guy" takes. SK list now looks like:

1.some other guy
2.me
3.RC
4.some guy

If you are not in attendance, you do not move up the list in SK. People can fall below you if there is someone below you who IS in the raid.

Krashtork
07-01-2008, 12:04 PM
Wow...my GM was doing it wrong that whole time... /sigh

I thought there was something inherently wrong with the way she did SK.

Now that i think about it Wulfhere is correct.

Corise
07-04-2008, 11:52 AM
In the course of reading this thread one thing that I noticed is that no one defined what fairness is. The Merriam-Webster dictionary has as a definition the following : 6 a: marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with>b (1) : conforming with the established rules.


I think the meaning to this when applied to is impartiality and also that a strong measure of consistency be in place. Sure, the original post mentioned that DKP is about incentive and not about fairness, but I strongly disagree. I feel that incentive can not exist unless fairness is in play. Would I raid regardless of my incentive if I knew people would unfairly receive items? No. A loot system must first be fair, and then provide incentive.


Consistency is key to fairness, and therefore must be key to incentive. Let me give a real example of where a lack of consistency will break down incentive. You down the Council in BT and they drop the plate DPS helm and Leggings of the Forgotten Protector (Warrior, Hunter, Shaman). There is only one DPS warrior in the raid and he has the highest DKP. However, if you place the Helm for bid first it will drop the warriors DKP below a hunter and that hunter will win the pants. But if you place the pants up for bid first, the DPS warrior will win them and the helm will go to the warrior as well by default.

So what do you do? Do what you have always done. For me I use a top down method. Whatever item is at the top of the loot box when I open it is the first to be up for bid. In the case of the Council I always open the bidding on each mob in the same order. Mage, Priest, Rogue and the the Paladin.

Now, I am not saying this is how all guilds should do loot. What I am saying is that whatever way you choose you will find that if you are consistent in the way you handle loot distribution every time then you will surely have less problems.


An argument can easily be made that consistency can be unfair. If you are consistent at giving all the items to yourself, then that would be unfair right? No, it would not. Fairness is an abstract idea that has a different meaning for different people. You can see this quite easily through the discussions on this very board, especially between the concepts of loot council vs DKP. If everyone in your guild believes that giving yourself all the items first is fair, then it is fair and also consistent.


So to conclude, I disagree with the idea that loot systems should not focus on fairness and instead should be about incentive, it must be both. Fairness is about impartial consistency and must be decided upon by the group that uses it. If many people see your system as fair they will join you on your endeavors, if they don't then you can have all the Hogger loot to yourself.

Doc309
07-06-2008, 07:06 AM
fair would be everyone gets one. scarcity in the economic sense, makes this impossible. in economics the persons that's willing to pay more wins...

so what is fair...
i'll give a Kara level example. substitute whatever tier your working on :)

you're recruiting trying to step up to the next tier. you've been working here for weeks, wipe after wipe...

T4 helm drops who gets it? the tank that's been working for months with the guild, or the 3 week recruit?

both you hope will be there in GL/ML.
it's a bigger upgrade for the recruit.
the old tank has been working on this "forever"
you need both tanks geared.

really there is no fair...

we use ep/gp. for us it's the right balance of encouraging attendence of old and new players...

giwsgib
08-06-2008, 05:12 PM
there is a post in the guild relations forum on the WoW boards that covered a lot of that. we instated a modified version of the system Cider posted and it was very well received and so far has worked pretty well.


Can anyone direct me to this?

Ceravantes
08-07-2008, 06:16 AM
In the course of reading this thread one thing that I noticed is that no one defined what fairness is. The Merriam-Webster dictionary has as a definition the following : 6 a: marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with>b (1) : conforming with the established rules.


I think the meaning to this when applied to is impartiality and also that a strong measure of consistency be in place. Sure, the original post mentioned that DKP is about incentive and not about fairness, but I strongly disagree. I feel that incentive can not exist unless fairness is in play. Would I raid regardless of my incentive if I knew people would unfairly receive items? No. A loot system must first be fair, and then provide incentive.


Consistency is key to fairness, and therefore must be key to incentive. Let me give a real example of where a lack of consistency will break down incentive. You down the Council in BT and they drop the plate DPS helm and Leggings of the Forgotten Protector (Warrior, Hunter, Shaman). There is only one DPS warrior in the raid and he has the highest DKP. However, if you place the Helm for bid first it will drop the warriors DKP below a hunter and that hunter will win the pants. But if you place the pants up for bid first, the DPS warrior will win them and the helm will go to the warrior as well by default.

So what do you do? Do what you have always done. For me I use a top down method. Whatever item is at the top of the loot box when I open it is the first to be up for bid. In the case of the Council I always open the bidding on each mob in the same order. Mage, Priest, Rogue and the the Paladin.

Now, I am not saying this is how all guilds should do loot. What I am saying is that whatever way you choose you will find that if you are consistent in the way you handle loot distribution every time then you will surely have less problems.


An argument can easily be made that consistency can be unfair. If you are consistent at giving all the items to yourself, then that would be unfair right? No, it would not. Fairness is an abstract idea that has a different meaning for different people. You can see this quite easily through the discussions on this very board, especially between the concepts of loot council vs DKP. If everyone in your guild believes that giving yourself all the items first is fair, then it is fair and also consistent.


So to conclude, I disagree with the idea that loot systems should not focus on fairness and instead should be about incentive, it must be both. Fairness is about impartial consistency and must be decided upon by the group that uses it. If many people see your system as fair they will join you on your endeavors, if they don't then you can have all the Hogger loot to yourself.


I could agree with most of this, but fundamentally I feel that you are in conflict with yourself. You can't be fair and consistent, but consistency can be fair.

Look at it like this, you are a doctor and must decide on 1 person out of 5 to receive a heart transplant, each has some sort of touching story involved with their lives. How would you pick?

There is no fair here, who is to say who deserves something more than another, its all relative based on perception. But if you have set forth standards, and remain consistent in your standards there is no question of fairness, the decision has already been made for you.

It absolves you from responsibility over the decision, you didn't decide the rules did.

In the situation you outlined, the "fair" thing to do would be to give each one item, everyone gets something ya? But that would have been inconsistent and against the standards set forth, hence the standards/consistency being unfair.

The crux of this would be that being consistent can seem unfair at tims, but in the end maintaining that consistency is the only true way to be fair, the only true way to acheive the impartiality neccessary in dealing with loot systems for guilds.

The second you start catering loot, raid and/or guild management about fairness is the second you set your guild on a downward path to faiure. You need to set rules and standards in everything you do as a guild/raid and follow them regardless of how unfair it seems.

orcstar
08-07-2008, 07:32 AM
You can set anything you want in the rules, just make sure you're not caught by surprise. Things which are only theoretically possible will happen. (murphy's law)

So if you can think up some unlikely things about your lootdistribution, they will probably happen with your pants down.

Some examples which caught my guild with its pants down
-A person getting a vanity item, not an upgrade, while it was an upgrade for someone else. (I think it was some kind of cool fistweapon from Al'ar)
-Our rogues (who were on top of dkp and very close to eachother) not getting ANY upgrades and passing on everything in Black Temple to make sure they had highest dkp on the warglaives.
-People wanting to do farmcontent instead of progressioncontent because the risk-reward was better for farmcontent. (read our dkp system gave dkp for kills, not tries on a new boss.)


In these cases we followed the lootrules but the results were not optimal. So think about the things which you don't want to happen and cater your lootdistribution for that.

Tatt
08-07-2008, 07:34 AM
My guild has a surprisingly easy loot system that has worked well so far into Hyjal. Main>Alt>Offspec, and only 1 piece of gear per night. Sounds simplistic, but how can you argue with a free roll based on that system? We have literally 0 loot drama, if you win it great, if you don't it'll drop again so who cares, and everyone stops worrying about loot :)

orcstar
08-07-2008, 07:57 AM
My guild has a surprisingly easy loot system that has worked well so far into Hyjal. Main>Alt>Offspec, and only 1 piece of gear per night. Sounds simplistic, but how can you argue with a free roll based on that system? We have literally 0 loot drama, if you win it great, if you don't it'll drop again so who cares, and everyone stops worrying about loot :)
At first sight such a loot system might sound ideal, but bad things are hapening with that.
If you can think it up it will happen.
Let's say your competing with one other warriortank for gear. Each run 1 tanking item drops and the other warrior wins each run and after about 2 months you're still running around in your SSC gear, because that darn loot only wants to drop that one time. I would like to ask you then if you think the loot distribution is still ok?
And it's exactly what I've seen happen.
Some people might argue when rolling, in the end it all evens out but statistics will prove that wrong.
What happens when rolling is that a few people get more then average and a very few a lot more, most of the people will get about average and a few people will get below average and maybe one person will just always seem to lose.
If you're that one person having a streak of bad luck, raiding can become very frustrating.

(We had a shaman in guild with blue shoulders in Black Temple because he was out of luck every single time for shoulders and he started with us in Karazhan. If he was in the raid, shoulders would not drop, if he wasn't we would get lots of shoulderpieces. But tbh that wasn't because of how the lootsystem worked.)

Tatt
08-07-2008, 07:58 AM
Only thing I can say about that is if the tank who keeps winning isn't a decent enough human being to see the trend and help the other guy, than I would not want to raid with him anyway.

orcstar
08-07-2008, 08:28 AM
Only thing I can say about that is if the tank who keeps winning isn't a decent enough human being to see the trend and help the other guy, than I would not want to raid with him anyway.
That's not the point. And, decency is relative, if you're in the position to set lootrules you're also in the position to get rid of the need for "relative".
Make a better system, which doesn't rely on human decency and then there is still room to always pass on an item.

phaze
08-07-2008, 08:57 AM
Can anyone direct me to this?
Are you asking about the stickied thread on Guild Loot Distribution (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14733001)?


Only thing I can say about that is if the tank who keeps winning isn't a decent enough human being to see the trend and help the other guy, than I would not want to raid with him anyway.
Your system doesn't require the winning player to keep tabs on the other player(s), therefore you have no solid basis for determining when the winning player should see any trends / pass on gear for others.

In order to correct for that, you'd have to track loot/attendance/etc, and assign values accordingly; that's a point system, whether it's explicitly written down or just "everyone should know when it's not their turn".

If your guild can function perfectly with a simple free-roll system, great! But don't expect the players to be self-imposing additional constraints, if they're not spelled out in advance by the system.

Ceravantes
08-07-2008, 10:39 AM
Just because a free roll based system has worked thus far, does not mean it will continue to do. Guilds implode over loot more often than anything else, eliminating as much possible trouble ahead of time is the entire reason for a loot system.

This does not mean complicated, but it does mean precise. Free roll absed systems leave to much room for error or hurt feelings and will inevitably cause trouble.

Inaara
08-07-2008, 11:45 AM
There is a large misconception sometimes when it comes too loot. No matter what the system, people expect it to be fair but that will never be the case. There is a hierarchy in the guild structure and the people that set the most finite of rules for loot still make the system they want fair or not.

Our guild uses a loot council and the reason we do it is because we base the loot we give out, on the "benifit" to the guild.

I just want to explain what our system attempts to achieve and it does do a fairly accurate job. Our system is based off a few things:

1. Who would benifit most from the item?

2. If this person benifits the most, is he active enough and does he put the time in to deserve it? (this does not mean that people without 100% attendance don't get loot, it just means that they wont get as much.)

3. The last thing we look at is how much loot has this person taken already? and make sure that loot is being distributed fairly.

There are a few exceptions to this rule, one being the main tank. He/I will take any loot we can use. This isnt because we are greedy, but because the guild benifits more for every piece of gear we have. This does put tanks on the spot sometimes, but it is a role some people chose. The tank that gets the loot also probably maintains a high 99%-100% attendance.

Two reasons I personally am a fan of this system:

1. It weeds out the people that raid for JUST epics, the people who log on for farm nights and not progression nights. Often these people get very aggitated when they get no loot because all they do is show up for old content and leave.

This is not to say people do not raid for just loot, and some people do both. They raid for loot but attend progression nights, they earn their loot.

2. This system make it the easy to complete new encounters. In my opinion from past experiences this systems causes faster progression which in the end gets you more epics. The people who do want to progress and just log on for farm content are ususally to dim to realize that PROGRESSION = more dead bosses = more dead bosses = more purples.


Our loot council is done EXACTLY the same way and it is by far the best loot system I've had experience with. Our loot council consists of 6-7 players covering every aspect of tank/dps/healing so that we as a whole can make the best decision for the guild.

As for rewarding people for farming mats like herbs/primals, we buy it from them at a higher rate than the auction house using guild bank gold. It's also not hard to remember who's putting in alot of hard work for the improvement of the guild and that little bit extra can get them that purple over someone that doesnt put in the extra effort.

Krashtork
08-07-2008, 12:44 PM
Loot council sucks because it begs to be abused. It may not be actively being abused, but the fact that it allows for abuse is sketchy at best.

Tatt
08-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Our guild is absolutely free roll, to the point that I was sent an angry tell from the guild leader for suggesting we discuss who would get Solarian's Sapphire, simply to make sure the melee warrior who attended the most and was in the right group would serve the raid the msot good with it. We are very strict about loot, just not the way people think.

Krashtork
08-07-2008, 12:56 PM
So you're very strict about not being strict?

Tatt
08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
Sounds like it doesn't it? I think we are strict about loot never being an issue. We won't let the raid implode over loot, because even at the kara level they made the loot rules, and being a small guild (30-40 people), all of who are raiders, then if we all started this way, it does not seem so strange. Loot is only a guild breaker if you let it be. Especially at this stage how can loot be a big deal? Unless we are talking about warglaives or the orange bow, what isn't going to be replaced in the next 6 months? Anyone playing right now who is only in it for the loot needs to step back and get some perspective.

phaze
08-07-2008, 01:08 PM
So you're very strict about not being strict?
Eh?

He's stated his guild's loot system, and he's stated that his guild experiences no problems with it. What exactly are you asking him?

As has been mentioned previously in the thread (and others): choose the system that works for your guild. Picking the system is up to you.

Krashtork
08-07-2008, 01:27 PM
Sounds like it doesn't it? I think we are strict about loot never being an issue. We won't let the raid implode over loot, because even at the kara level they made the loot rules, and being a small guild (30-40 people), all of who are raiders, then if we all started this way, it does not seem so strange. Loot is only a guild breaker if you let it be. Especially at this stage how can loot be a big deal? Unless we are talking about warglaives or the orange bow, what isn't going to be replaced in the next 6 months? Anyone playing right now who is only in it for the loot needs to step back and get some perspective.

Thanks for the straight up answer. That does make some sense if you have a small tight guild of all raiders. That way no matter who gets the loot there is a benefit.

orcstar
08-07-2008, 02:55 PM
Well in the en it boils down to this: everyone uses what works for them. Just stick to what you do and never ever change a lootsystem on the fly while raiding.

Doc309
08-07-2008, 03:41 PM
thinking that a zero sum ep/gp system works really well...

PRiority for loot = Effort/Gear

with EP = GP passed out / number of raid members.
you helped pass out more loot than you've taken your PR is higher.

Tatt
08-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Problem I had with EPGP is guys who were always backups, I.E. not good enough to be a main raider, would accumulate points for sitting in org or doing BG's while we were raiding, than would show up in a raid once a month and get whatever gear they wanted.

Doc309
08-07-2008, 05:59 PM
thats due to the divide by zero problem.... if the EP and GP is set to 1 and 1, problem gone.

Valley
08-07-2008, 10:03 PM
An idea I've run across that I feel some people may make sure of.

In my main's guild they have a rule. If an item is going to be de'd, or offspec. You can offer up 2 voids from yourself to the guild bank for the item instead. The offspec will still kinda count against you.

This just benifits the guild bank as it lets them always get 2 voids from something no one is going to really use. It does have some flaws with it as just a blanket idea. however in some aspect I hope that someone may make some use of it.

(guild was primarily lootcouncil w/ a large attendence backing. They only really tracked the previous 3 weeks of attendence to back the council decisions.)

mero12513
08-08-2008, 08:34 AM
My guild uses EP/GP and it's worked very well.
Two things about epgp that make up for some problems:
Base GP: Everyone in my guild has 420 GP minimum at all time. You cannot go below this.
Decay: both ep and gp decay at 10% per week. This doesn't change priority unless you have no EP or are at the Base GP. This way, people who never actually come to raids and thus never get gear can't stash ep and auto-win.

Shadevarr
11-20-2008, 05:26 PM
Our guild has kept the DKP system incredibly simple because we felt that a complex system would breed a feeling of unfairness.

1. DKP is awarded for attendance, staying 'til end and progression kill only. 1 point per event.

2. Open bidding, can't bid more than you have. DKP is assigned to the player.


This has ended up promoting insane attendance in our guild. We went from cancelling raids left and right to having to form a ZA group for those on standby to have something to do.

Porcini
12-09-2008, 07:46 PM
In TBC our guild ran a variation on fixed price zero-sum DKP. While it was a fair system, it had some issues.



Inability to reward for progression attempts, progression kills, sitout bonuses etc.
Inconsistency in reward for boss kills, as points were based on the value of items dropped
DKP hording


For Wrath we've moved to EPGP, and the response from the guild has been really favourable. It's an easy to understand system, and while distributing loot in a similar manner to ZSDKP, allows for the introduction of bonus points for rewarding progression attempts, and also solved issues related to DKP hording by virtue of the systems weekly point decay. EPGP also lets us control how we reward effort in the guild - in our system, just turning up prepared 15 minutes before the raid rewards more EP than a boss kill.

The addon is regularly updated, and easy to operate. The author is going to be rolling out a web based export utility soon as well, for guilds that like to post points on their website.

VikingIrishman
12-22-2008, 08:36 PM
Our guild doesn't use DKP. Instead we use a tier-based looting system based around Master Looter. Anything that is BoE ( I know, rare in end-game, but still) is a free roll. If it's BoE, the highest ranked members of the guild get first priority to roll. If no one NEEDS the item, then the next highest rank gets priority, and so on until someone actually NEEDS it. If no one NEEDS it, it becomes a free roll.

The incentive here is to attend raids, support the guild, and maintain good behavior in an effort to get promoted within the guild, leading to a higher chance that you'll get the item.

Wasshoi
12-23-2008, 04:59 AM
Not a fan of rolling, being that its random. As in... it can be an even random distribution across the raid.... or heavily skewed to some lucky classes that seem to have their way with the dices.

Crommi
12-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Not a fan of rolling, being that its random. As in... it can be an even random distribution across the raid.... or heavily skewed to some lucky classes that seem to have their way with the dices.

Yeah, we were rolling until DKP site and system were ready to go and basically that ended up in situation where person A had full sets of both T7 gear and rest of the people sharing same tokens were in blue/heroic gear. Also had two hunters rolling against 2xDKs and dps-warrior on our first (and so far only) Betrayer of Humanity drop. Seeing that going to hunter finally made things happen and DKP was up and running by next raid.

kolben
12-23-2008, 03:35 PM
Realize this is an old thread, but just re-reading it.

I've seen loot council used quite a bit, as has my brother, and I was GM of a casual raiding guild that used it early on in 25-man content. It's insidious in the ways that it is flawed.

- Loot is more or less going to get distributed to players with high attendance regardless.
- Players who have low attendance are unlikely to get anything that isn't gear the guild sees a lot anyway.
- Loot is most likely going to go to a favorite person(s) at the moment be that a healer, tank, or even a "new" dps addition.
- Players have no input, no way to say "i want to be considered seriously for this item". Aside from plainly stating that in raid chat, whispers, vent, etc and hoping they are heard.

We had people coming to us and praising us for not using DKP because their old guild used it, and so many people have a strong aversion to the very idea of DKP so they love anything else. What they don't realize is that with a system like Loot Council, getting upgrades is 100% out of their control. In fact if they are the strong slient type, or just shy they will get passed over quite frequently because it's just human nature to oil the squeaky wheel.

Rolling is just awful with a progression group, it's just not even fair since the person you have fill a spot that night will be cranking out 90s more likely than not. For farm groups and where you have a lot of guests though it's perfect.

I've seen a lot of what I consider hokey loot systems, the real objective of these seems to be to duck the "DKP" label. I personally don't know where players got so turned off by DKP, in classic WoW that's what my raiding guild used and I never thought it was unfair. It actually kept loot pigs at bay a little since they had to decide to blow DKP now on something they don't even really care about, or hold on to it hoping that item X drops off the next boss.. etc.

Toyed with EPGP, it's DKP in disguise in my opinion. Frankly it's pretty unfair to the people who can not make 100% of raids as they couldn't climb the ladder high enough to be considered for loot if anyone else was a 100% raid attending junkie. This may have been how that guild implemented the system, but in the end I felt it unfair to our more casual players. Among tanks, well myself and the paladin had 100% attendance so it ended up just being an exchange of "Go ahead.. No U!" for a minute or two :P

Elysian
12-24-2008, 08:55 AM
Some guild leaders like myself, may found themselves in a position to think of something else to try other than DKP.

The major flaws with DKP in a WoTLK world is even greater then before. Sure, you can probably augment another rule or addon to your DKP setup to compensate for the 10 man vs 25 man loot, the crafted gear, or the fact that some nights your guild might be killing 18 bosses while the next you may be killing 2 (if you use a zero sum dkp system this could be very bad).

So what else is there? I have tried most of the spectrums of loot systems. First, we did a Weighted Roll system where you random /100 on items, then add a weight ontop of it up to 80 points, depending on how many nights you raided without loot gain.

The next we moved to DKP, because the WR system was inherently biased towards casuals and lucky rollers. Once we saw a paladin who barely raided get the first Tier 2 set in our guild, we knew it was time to change. We chose a zero sum DKP system to avoid inflation, we used this for the rest of vanilla and TBC.

The problems with DKP isn't the logic of it, its the illogical behaviour loot brings out in people. The average WoW player in a high end gaming guild wants one thing, loot. Loot is viewed as an extension of one's coolness. It is the same reason why people go goo goo over achievements, its all about the epeen baby. Logically, loot isn't designed for this purpose, although it is cool to have and strut your stuff, loot is eventually trashed for better loot. Better loot comes from killing bigger bosses, so thus, loot is purely a stepping stone to get you to the next first boss kill for your guild. Loot boils down to a tool, not a reward. Loot is not a wage for your raid salary job, loot is the object that helps you do your job and the boss kill is the salary.

If everyone thought this way, many guilds will be much farther ahead in progression. Why? because loot would then be naturally given to those who get the largest upgrade. The largest upgrade for the raid means ... the largest upgrade for the raid. It is really simple to understand. But in a DKP system, high turn out raiders who feel they deserve the cutting edge loot will constantly purchase upgrades that are small vs others who would have a greater return from the item, and those people who are under then are forced to spend DKP on items that none of those other people want. Even if the lower party in this scenario raids all the time. This is the issue I personally had to deal with in the later parts of my zero sum DKP experience.

I know, there are other methods to DKP you could deal with, but what got me in the end was the nature and message that DKP sends. Most of my people viewed DKP as money... and even though we tried to drill it into their skulls that it wasn't money, thats actually what it is. You work in a raid, you get your "money" and you spend it on items. It brings the worst out of people.

So, in WoTLK we turned to a new system. Loot Council. At first, people are apprehensive to the idea. Loot council systems can be viewed a system that is ran by humans, not numbers, and can be biased or corrupt. This is true, if ran by the wrong set of people. What Loot Council has done for us, is pretty amazing so far. We have learned to treat loot as a upgrade tool, not a reward. No longer do people have to worry about their DKP points falling, hording points for a coveted item, worried about offspec gear and so on.

This is how our system works.



Item drops and presented to raid chat.
Person who wants item messages a particular person who specializes in that item class, and they link the item it will upgrade in the whisper.
Person receiving tell(s) filters through them and comes to a general conclusion between a few candidates and presents them to a loot council channel.
Loot council agrees/discusses on loot decision.
Loot is given to the selected person.

The criteria the loot council considers:

Biggest upgrade
Raid Attendance
Recruit/Member?
How many items he/she has one in the raid id/all time.
... and so on.


Our guild has made every item drop count the most towards the raid, not the individual, and we have already seen huge improvements in attitude and success on boss kills.

For some, loot council may not be for you, but I am a huge fan of the system.

Jabouty
12-24-2008, 02:24 PM
My guild has been using Suicide Kings since day one of raiding for us when Z'G dropped.

The two posts I have read in this thread *almost* have the system right. However, as one of the folks helping to keep this sytem working and keeping the in-game addon for this system (SKG) going I feel the need to shed some light on it's proper use and it's downsides as well.

First, the SK system is not a set of rules you arbitrarily follow. It is a system that you start off with as a base foundation for *YOUR* loot system, in that you design the rules of when a person can or will bid their list position for loot. Yes, you can use SK OOB without any issues, and some guild do, we have found that the best uses for the SK system is from guilds that use it as a base to create their loot system from.

To begin with someone in the guild needs to create the lists, this is typically done by the master looter for raids. They can be anything you want, and you have full control over how you want to run the lists based on your loot system. Our guild currently runs SK only on 25 man content, and our lists consist of a general loot list (for non-specific items) and a Tier Token list.

Once you have determined your lists you then populate the list, we suggest that you initially build these lists via randomized insertion into the list of the folks. I have heard of guilds that use attendance as who gets in the list first though. Once you have the lists built then any subsequent member who gets added on future raids we recommend that they are added to the list at the very bottom so that they will work their way up the list through attendance.

The specifics of what happens when loot drops is this:

You have a list with 10 people on it, out of the 10 people you have 5 in the raid, the others are offline (I'll color them purple, and online folks in green).

Raid List
1. Randy
2. Melissa
3. Ciderhelm
4. Jabouty
5. Bodasafa
6. Zylia
7. Valvoodoo
8. Lolhealingu
9. Samhein
10. Lewthor

Now you get a piece of loot that drops, and your master looter determines that it is raid loot and not another list so he uses the raid list. He opens the bidding on the item. Melissa decides that she has a better piece of loot and does not bid. Jabouty cannot use the item, so does not bid. Bodasafa however, can use the item and decides it's an upgrade worth his position on the list and therefore bids. As does Zylia. Samhein does not want the loot as it's only a side-grade for him so he does not bid. Bidding is then closed and the magic starts.

Since Bodasafa was the highest on the list out of the members currently in the raid that decided to bid, he wins the loot. The master looter gives the loot to Bodasafa. The list changes though. When the loot is handed to Bodasafa, he drops to the bottom of the list of players currently in the raid, thereby replacing Samhein for the position. Everyone else below him before the loot event moves up one space in relation to the players currently in the raid. Anyone not in the raid stays in their position and does not move. So now the list looks like:

Raid List
1. Randy
2. Melissa
3. Ciderhelm
4. Jabouty
5. Zylia
6. Samhein
7. Valvoodoo
8. Lolhealingu
9. Bodasafa
10. Lewthor

While Bodasafa moved down the list, everyone in the raid below him moved up one position relative to the current raid members. Notice that because Valvoodoo and Lolhealingu were not present for the raid, they were not moved, the raid moved around them. That is the incentive for getting people to show up for raids. If you are not in the raid your position is parked and you cannot raise your position.

What happens if no one bids on the item except the person on the very bottom of the list? They stay put and get loot :D. It sometimes pays better to be near the bottom more than the top of the lists.

SK has a built in fix for the arguement of "well if I show up on time and ready and cannot go, what then? I stay put?!?". You can "Reserve" a player on the list. That player cannot receive loot (obviously since they are not in the raid) but being a reserved player allows that player's position to move as if they were in the raid at the time of the loot event.

We use this feature as the incentive to show up to raids on-time and ready, even if you were not brought. If you are on-time and ready to go at the instance but were not chosen for whatever reason, you are placed on the reserved list as long as you stay online and ready for the duration of the raid (you don't have to stay at the instance, simply online either on an alt or farming on the main with a way for us to contact you if you are needed). If you do this then you will move with the raid, thereby giving the incentive to be on-time, gear repaired, consumables filled, and at the instance ready to zone in.

What we have noticed in 3+ years of running SK is that you actually gain more gear sitting near the bottom of the lists than you do at the top. The only difference is that if you are at the top then you are tempted to hold your spot until "THAT ONE PIECE" drops. Thereby gimping yourself of gear that could be a possible upgrade for you. How is that combated? Easily actually, over time of someone camping their position like that others gear themselves better and eventually the one at the top of the list has gimped themselves so severely that others are taking their raiding slot because they have the gear to progress, whereas the camper does not.

As long as the lists are moving at a good rate from top to bottom then stagnation and camping are also combated because with people gaining gear, there is conversations between the raiders of "is this gear better for you?" or "Go ahead and bid, I'll sit this one out cus it's a bigger upgrade for your blue than my purple." The problem with SK comes when there is very little actual progression going on.

This is where using SK can be an issue. If you are stuck on a boss somewhere, then your lists don't move, and eventually folks start to get frustrated at the encounter, and the fact that there is no "perceived" rewards that come from slamming their heads into that wall of an encounter because the lists are not moving, therefore people are not getting loot. We have not come up with a good suggestion on how to keep the incentive up for wipe nights using SK, but we are looking for input on how we can lessen this issue.

SK also can take into account a player's alt toons if you so choose so that no matter what toon the player is on, they are given the same priority (which is how we use it), or alternately you can add the alt separately and have that toon on it's one list position, thereby creating a natural priority for whichever toon the player wants to gear first.

By designing a loot system around the method of using list based looting you are creating a more vocal and friendly looting system due to the fact that the players always know who is ahead of them in the list and therefore can open discussions with that person ahead of time to determine looting priorities amongst themselves, which in turn moves the guild closer to the goal of guildies for the guild. Whereas in other systems it can come as a surprise as to who is going to "win" the loot.

As with all other looting systems however, SK is not fair as it truly does favor one person over another in it's purest form. It is, however a more fair option for looting than most other systems when you take the concerns of the individual players into account as well as the guild as a whole when designing your looting system. In addition to this, it helps to create a much friendly atmosphere surrounding looting in my personal experience as well because people know who will be getting the loot next for the most part.

I honestly could go on for days on the pros and cons of using SK (duh? use wall-o-text as example?), but the simple fact lies in that whatever system you decide to use for your guild, the biggest way to avoid loot drama is threefold:


Explain, in detail, to the rank and file every intricate detail, in writing, of your looting system so that you may refer them back to the details in the event of an issue.
Stick by your rules, do not change them on a whim because "It seemed like a good idea at the time..."; that will cause more dissention among your ranks than you will ever think possible.
Do not ever recruit people that do not fit your philosophy of your guilds. If you make the mistake of recruiting a loot whore or someone who does not fit into your guild's philosophy on how it works, rectify it as quickly as possible, do not drag it out otherwise you'll create drama where there should be none.

For anyone wanting further information on the SK base system:
SKG - World of Warcraft - WowAce.com (http://www.wowace.com/projects/skg)

Jabouty

P.s. Sorry for the serious WoT...I didn't realize I was gonna go that in-depth lol

bondetamp
01-02-2009, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the explanation of SK. I hadn't quite grasped the mechanics.

Would it be fair to say that a zero-sum dkp system where the price of an item is 100% of that player's dkp, would work similarly?

Lore
01-02-2009, 10:41 AM
We've been trying out loot council in Wrath so far. I will state immediately that, had you asked me a week ago how I felt about the system, I would have probably given you a six-paragraph rant about how loot council was the worst idea ever.

But here's what I've learned since.

#1: Abandon all pretense of being fair. There's no fairness here. Loot Council is a 100% progression-focused system. There can and most likely will be drama. Loot Council is a terrible system for guilds or raiders that raid for the loot. Ideally, everyone should follow the mindset that killing bosses is the point, and the loot is just a technicality that's necessary to continue killing bosses.

#2: Be 100% firm, all the time. We made the mistake initially of usually picking 2-3 people that were interested in an item and having them RR. Big mistake. First, it breeds uncertainty, which breeds distrust -- and trust is 100% the core of the system. Your guild members have to trust that the council is being fair and knows where loot should go, and opening up any degree of randomness or "any of these people will work" just makes your officers seem like they don't know what they're doing. Second, it actually causes more drama than just picking someone; it's harder for someone to make a case that they deserve a specific item more than one person than it is to make the case that they should be included in a list (or that someone else should not have been included). And finally, it just slows the whole thing down.

#3: Be prepared. My officers and I all run the Raid Tracker addon (which is very similar to the old CT_RaidTracker from way back when) just to keep a small, mostly-automatic database of who's been around a lot and who's gotten a lot. We don't use it as a be-all end-all -- if we wanted to do that, we'd just use DKP -- but it's nice to have some record of attendance and so forth.

#4: Be willing to mess up. You'll make mistakes. You'll give loot to the wrong person. There will be a learning period. Oh well. Loot isn't the focus.

All said and done, Loot Council has some very real benefits. It's faster, and you have a lot more flexibility in making sure loot goes where you want it to.

Krashtork
01-02-2009, 11:19 PM
Lore, what made decide on trying loot council?

OfficeMax
01-24-2009, 09:30 AM
We've tried DKP and loot council, to date neither has worked that well for us.

What we have developed is a ranking system within our guild of Raider/Member/Recruit.

In 25 man raids if we down X boss and X piece of gear drops; we encourage everyone to check their gear and their neighbors (Sounds like this doesn't work; but when you have around 20 - 22 regulars each week people acutally care about each others gear and want to help out to progress) and then decide if they want to roll.

We let the raiders roll first. If no one needs it then we open it up to Members and finally down to recruits.

When you join the guild you have a 2 week window before you are a member. After that if you have been attending raids/decent performane and there is a spot open (Or another raider has been slacking in his current spot) usually within 1 week you will be moved up to raider status.

So far in this system we've lost two guildies; both who left before their 2 week recruit status period was up.

In a kiddish manner we think of this loot system like a self-cleaning oven for our guild to automatically weed out people there just for "Phat Epix" for minimal dedication to the guild =)

It has been working well; except for the fact that we are trying to figure out a way to encourage more people to work on attendance with progression raids. =/

Missing Thadduis/Sapphiron/4H/KThuzad - 25 Naxx
Missing Malygos - 25

lorelye
01-27-2009, 11:51 AM
Toyed with EPGP, it's DKP in disguise in my opinion. Frankly it's pretty unfair to the people who can not make 100% of raids as they couldn't climb the ladder high enough to be considered for loot if anyone else was a 100% raid attending junkie.

This was implementation. DKP works like a checkbook; you earn up points, you spend them, and they get subtracted. It favors high attendance and veteran members. It's for hardcore guilds only.

EPGP uses division instead of subtraction. If you earn up 300 points and spend 150, your PR is 2:1. If someone else earns 600 and spends 300, his priority is also 2:1. In other words, if you raid half as often, you win half as often. It is the only system I know that allows part-time raiders to win items proportional to their effort.

The problem people have with EPGP is setup. You must have Min EP and Base GP implemented to avoid oddball issues.

blindpiggy
01-30-2009, 07:04 AM
A little background first - (this is my first post on these forums, Hi!)

Our guild had run an open roll system for ALL of BC and while it was good in some ways and had a lot to do with the people we had in the guild. It worked really well for the most part limiting people to 1 epic/set piece per run. This was fine and dandy while each person looked after each other. With the coming of WotLK we knew we had a bad apple or two and were decided to move to a more formal loot system, while keeping it as close to a free roll as we could.

First we decided we needed to base our rolls on a raid week and not a raid day. We raid three days a week and someone showing up only on the last day should not be on the same playing field as someone who had been there for all three days.

We are casual and have about 40 semi-active raiders so our roster goes through a LOT of change throughout the week. There are those that make 1 raid a week and there are others that are pretty consistently 3 nights a week, with an absence here or there for RL stuff. So getting a loot system that was both fair and for the most part still felt casual was what we REALLY wanted. DKP was too serious. Suicide kings was okay but it was going to take a bit more work than our officers could handle, because we haven't delegated out a lot of the responsibilities like we should.

So this is what I devised and what we are currently using as loot rules. I bolded them so you can skip them if you just want to read the explanation that follows.

1. Epic/Set items are now based on Raid I.D. and NOT Raid Night. Please see #2 for more information on how you may receive more than one piece of loot each week. I.E. If you win something on Tuesday's run and something you need drops on Sunday's run, and someone in the raid hasn't won anything that week they will get priority over you. The Raid I.D.'s include any official Guild Run, so OS and Naxx are considered one Raid I.D. PVP Gear obtained from a WG run or any other PVP specific loot will not be counted against you.
1a. There will be instances, in which there will be a hybrid class that will win a multiclass item such as a ring/neck/trinket/weapon and proceed to receive loot for items because they are the only one of that class/spec in the raid. We will always upgrade a person's gear over obtaining a shard.
1b. Items that fill a NEED for a sole spec/class when only one of said class/spec is present will be considered a needed piece of loot not uncontested. For example, a Libram that a Ret pali needs drops, I am the only ret pali in the raid but I really need that libram because my current one sucks, that will count for my epic, even if it is uncontested. This will hopefully stop people who haven't received any loot a better chance at receiving a multiclass/spec piece like a ring or neck.
1c. Uncontested loot: Uncontested loot is loot that reaches its "last call" and no one rolls on it. After a few seconds the floor will be opened for off specs.
1d. Side grades and UBNO's have been removed. Players have the opportunity to play a class how they like, part of that is gearing their characters. Sometimes an upgrade for one person is a side grade for another based on playstyle. Knowing X piece is better than Y piece can not be laid upon officers to know and remember, that will be on the player and therefore has been deemed too hard to police.

2. The Tally System: Each Tuesday we start a new tally in our officer's note for all guild members. Raiders who are available for a raid will receive a +1 to their tally. Availability is important because there is not always enough slots for everyone to get into a raid. So if you meet the requirements here (http://www.gloryofwar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18289) found under the raiders section, you are ready to raid and will receive a tally whether or not you are invited to the raid. For each piece of loot that you receive during the week's Raid I.D. you will get a -1 in the officer note. When rolling for loot, the priority for loot goes to the person with the higher number in their officer note. If both players have the same number then the highest roll wins.
2a. Players who are available for the raid when the raid starts and become unavailable may have their tally point taken away. This will not include circumstances beyond a persons control, but it is necessary unfortunately.
2b. A Player's tally can not go below 0.
2c. Set items will be kept as a running tally that does not reset until the player has won a set token. In the instance of two or more players interested in a single piece of loot their tally will be compared, if they are the same, then a /roll will take place. When a player wins a set token that tally will be reset to 0. NOTE: Set Items and Non-Set Items are on Different Tally's.
2d. "Tally"s are player based NOT character based. Meaning Alts have the same tally as mains and will subtract from their mains tally just like any other piece.

3. We are using the guild calendar more. We will post raid nights, plus the bosses intended for that run. This will allow raiders to research what loot they need from which bosses, and hopefully allow our open communication to be discussed further and more quickly during loot time. The less time we spend with loot the more time we can spend dealing with bosses. There are a lot of bosses that drop the same loot, so you need to be aware of this as well.

4. Hybrids fill many rolls and may on, occasion be asked to come in as a role they are not normally accustomed to. This will generally be by officer's request. Players asked to fill a different roll by an officer, or are approved by an officer to respec outside of their normal raiding spec, will decide prior to a raid which spec they will be rolling for. Officers will query your gear and comfort with the idea of changing roles prior to implementation, when possible. Respec's at officer's request for raid progression are usually temporary, one night, solutions.

Now this unfortunately SOUNDS a LOT more complex than it really is...

In the officer notes we have 2 numbers formatted # - #.

The first number is a non-set number. The second is a set item number.

The first number resets each week, is reduced by 1 for every non-offspec piece won, and can't go below 0.

The second number works almost identical (if not identical) to suicide kings. It continues to grow until a set piece is won, which then immediately resets to 0.

If players are competing on the same item, they roll. We look at the numbers related to the item (non-set or set). If they are the same, the player with the higher roll wins, else the higher numbered tally automatically wins.

Quick example:
Given that this is the first raid week of a guild (set numbers = 0 going into it)
HunterA shows up to 3 raids this week
HunterB shows up to 2 raids this week
HunterC shows up to 1 raid this week

First night:
HunterA and HunterB are both present.
HunterA's tally is 1-1
HunterB's tally is 1-1
HunterA wins a non-set piece
HunterA's tally is 0-1

Second night:
HunterA is present.
HunterA's tally is 1-2
HunterA wins nothing

Third night:
HunterA, HunterB, and HunterC are all present.
HunterA's tally is 2-3
HunterB's tally is 2-2
HunterC's tally is 1-1
HunterA gets priority on set pieces.
Hunter's A and B would roll on non-set pieces.
HunterC would likely not get anything from the raid unless A and B pass.

Following the Third night we do a non-set reset:
HunterA's tally is 0-3
HunterB's tally is 0-2
HunterC's tally is 0-1

First night of the next week:
All 3 hunters show up
HunterA's tally is 1-4
HunterB's tally is 1-3
HunterC's tally is 1-2
All three are now on even ground for non-set loot.

What helps us a good bit, is that we have very unselfish raiders. There is some discussion if a piece is won or if someone is still wearing a blue in a slot, someone will almost always pass for them, unless it's a best in slot.

We have had a problem with player knowledge as far as gear goes, i.e. best in slot items and had to list 1 item per class/spec that would be prioritized to them. Hunters envoy, melee 2h wielders BoH etc.

I know this system won't work for everyone, but it's very light, requires no mods/websites, keeps loot moving to different people. We did have a problem with people saving their rolls until things moved to sidegrades and so we implemented 1D in to help prevent that.

As far as mods that I use to help with the management of Officer notes, I use GuildOrganizer, pretty light and it helps when trying to sort through notes. It also allows you to change a note for several players at the same time. But you should only do this for people @ the same tally. Play with it a bit before you implement the system, you can hide your officer notes for testing, and if you feel comfortable I would make notes public to avoid confrontation.

Erichilles
01-30-2009, 12:25 PM
this is a proposed loot system for my guild, written up by one of the officers.

Basically, when loot drops, the number one priority is has anybody not gotten anything yet? Number two is Rank, which is earned by activity and contribution. The only thing i don't like is it makes a sort of ladder progression, where the new people get a train of loot that builds up and the geared people get the 1 or 2 pieces they need because they haven't taken any of the minor upgrades, however, the loot brackets SORT of fix that, but it's impossible to apeal to everybody

"Quick summary

For those who just want a flavor for how this works, here it is.

Different levels of loot (level 200, level 213/T7, and level 226/T7.5) are completely separate. Main-spec rolls and off-spec rolls are completely separate. Each week, you will be given a loot rank based on how much you've been raiding. When lotting, you will automatically win over anyone of any rank who has won more items than you. You will also automatically win over anyone of lower rank who has won the same number of items as you. Same-rank, same-win-count people will be resolved by rolling, as usual.

If you want more details, read on.


Motivation

This is a new looting system, proposed for Inquisition. Our goals in preparing this proposal include:


Maintain ease of understanding. It should be clear to everyone how the system works.
Fairly distribute loot across the entire raid.
Provide a mechanism for rewarding regular raid attendance.
Each player will be assigned a looting rank. There will be three looting ranks, hereafter referred to as follows:


Occasional raider
Regular raider
Frequent raider
Each week, on Tuesday, each player will be assigned their looting rank for the week, based on attendance within the last 6 weeks. This attendance, in turn, will be based on weekly activity. If you have attended at least 4 raids each week for 5 out of the last 6 weeks, you will be designated a "frequent raider". If you have attended at least 3 raids each week for at least 3 out of the last 6 weeks, you will be designated a "regular raider". If you do not meet either of these requirements, you will be designated an "occasional raider". A player will be counted as a raid attendee if he/she helps fight at least one boss, or if he/she shows up ready to raid, but is denied a position due to space constraints.

Note that a new guild member will inevitably fall in the "occasional raider" rank. Also note that anyone can attain the highest rank within 5 weeks.

Each player's rank will be clearly visible to all players, as all players' in-game guild ranks will be adjusted to reflect their looting ranks. The following additional guild ranks will also exist:


Non-raider: Members who have not yet reached level 80 will be in this rank.
Probationary member: New, unknown, members will be in this rank. This rank will have the same looting privileges as "occasional raider", but will not have access to the guild bank. This rank is intended to foil guild bank ninjas. Once a member has been with us for 2 weeks, he/she will be automatically promoted to the appropriate "normal" rank, as detailed above.
Officer: People involved in regular guild decision making, and dispute arbitration. If you have a problem or suggestion, please contact one of the guild officers. They are granted "frequent raider" looting privileges.
Guild Master: Yeah, this is Innkeeper, until he quits the game, or gets tired of running the guild. He also gets "frequent raider" looting privileges.
Loot will be divided into the following categories:


Level 200 non-tier epics
Level 200 tier 7 epics and level 213 non-tier epics
Level 213 tier 7.5 epics and level 226 epics
Each player's loot wins will be tracked for each of these categories, and for each spec. So, for example, main spec T7 wins are completely separate from off-spec level 200 epics. Win counts will be reset daily.

When a loot drops, the loot master will call for a roll on each piece individually. The first roll will be for "main spec". If you will use this piece on your main spec, you are eligible to roll at this time. Type "/random" to do so.

The loot master will provide a countdown, generally 5 seconds, during which rolls will be accepted. Once this countdown is over, rolls are closed, and the item will be allocated.

If any of the rollers have not won any main spec roll for this item's category, then all other rollers are disqualified. If everyone has won at least one thing, then everyone who has won two things is disqualified, and so on. Of the remaining rollers, everyone not of the highest rolling looting rank is disqualified. In other words, if a "frequent raider" is rolling, then neither an "occasional raider" nor a "regular raider" can win. Please note that this is AFTER disqualifications due to previously won loot. A frequent raider who has won something cannot win against a regular raider who has not won anything.

Of the remaining eligible rollers, the highest roll wins, and receives the loot.

Most of the above explanation is intended to cover rarer situations. In the vast majority of cases, the loot will simply go to the highest-ranking, highest-rolling member who hasn't won anything.

Please note, once again, that different categories of loot are separate. Winning a regular level 200 epic does not affect your chances to win tier 7. Note, however, that the level 213 epics that drop from Kel'Thuzad ARE grouped with tier 7. So if you've already won tier 7, you're probably not going to get a chance at the Kel'Thuzad drops.

If no one rolls on the "main spec" roll, the master looter will call for an "off spec" roll. Anyone who will use the item (on either main spec, or off spec) is eligible to roll at this time.

The rules for off spec are exactly the same as for main spec, except that the "win counts" are kept separately. In other words, main spec wins do not affect your ability to roll for off spec, and vice versa. However, if you've won an item on off spec, you can't win another off spec roll against anyone who hasn't won an off spec roll.

All of the above rules will apply equally to all epic items, including boss drops, trash drops, BoE items, and BoP items.

Loot bartering is not permitted. You can pay someone to not roll. You can even pay someone to pass, if you're REALLY quick, and have the next highest eligible roll. But you can't pay someone to give you the loot specifically. After-the-raid trades or sales of BoE items are strongly discouraged. If you're not going to use it, please don't roll on it.



Here are a few comments on WHY these rules were chosen:

Two big motivators here were "simplicity" and "keeping the new members interested." In particular, "DKP" points systems are popular, and there are quite a number of them. They are, however, fairly cumbersome to maintain, virtually impossible for individual members to track, and they have some undesirable long-term effects. The worst of the long-term effects is that it becomes nearly impossible for anyone but the very oldest of the members to win the best gear. It could certainly be argued that this is "fair", as the oldest members have perhaps contributed more over time. On the other hand, it leads to newer members realizing that it would actually be more profitable for them to leave the guild and make their own. In the worst case, this leaves the older members looking around wondering why they can't make a full run.

The system here ensures that any member can become an "old member" within a few weeks, with maximum chance for winning whatever gear they desire. I think of it as a "what have you done for us LATELY" ranking system. :-)


Here are a few things that could be tweaked:

"Win count" reset timing. There are several options for when previous loot wins are reset, and no longer count:


Reset every "raid entry". This is the simplest method. If it takes us two days to do Naxxramas, then those two days are separate. If we meet once to do both Obsidian Sanctum and Vault of Archavon, then those two raids are separate, and one player can win loot from both.
Reset every day. Also a very simple method. Similar to the above, except that the Sarth and VoA loot would count together. No one could win from both.
Reset every run. Here, if it takes us two days to complete Naxxramas, then loot wins on the first day are remembered and still count on the second day. One undesirable side effect of this option is that people who join the run late effectively have a higher chance of winning loot, for doing less work.
Reset every week. In this system, any loot win during the week would count for later loot drops. So, for example, if you win something on Tuesday's Sarth run, then you're not eligible for anything in Thursday's Naxx run unless everyone else rolling has also won something that week.
Some combination of the above. For example, we might reset Naxx counts every day but lump all the smaller single-boss raids (VoA, Sarth, Malygos) into a single batch
The system as proposed uses daily win count resets. This is mainly for simplicity.

Loot ranks. Maybe we only want two ranks. Maybe we want four. Maybe we want the highest rank to be harder to attain. And we certainly might want to have different names for the ranks. I don't much like the current proposal. Alternates include "rank 1, rank 2, rank 3" (boring, but descriptive) and "private, corporal, sergeant" (possibly too cutesy).

"Dream item" system. I'm kicking around the idea of making it possible for a frequent raider to designate a "dream item" of theirs. This would be an item which they particularly want, and on which they would be guaranteed to be able to roll. Perhaps if they win this item, it would count as a win which carries over to the next run, for fairness. Certainly, one would need to designate this item before the run starts. Also, there would need to be a limit on how often one can designate such an item. In other words, if you win your dream item, you shouldn't be able to immediately designate another, and keep grabbing all the good loot that way. This idea seems particularly subject to abuse, and I'm not sure there's a fair way to implement it. Still, it would alleviate much of the agonizing over "should I save my roll for something good" that seems to happen.


Here are a few comments on strategy you may want to consider:

It is true that you might want to consider "saving your roll" for a better item. If something is only a marginal upgrade, you may wish to either roll on off-spec, or pass entirely. This is especially true if there's one particular item you want that drops later in the raid. Personally, I always roll main-spec on any item that's an upgrade. My reasoning is that raids happen every week, and if I miss something this week, it will drop again. This is, of course, a personal choice. You can feel free to save rolls for later in the raid, but you run the risk that whatever you're saving for won't drop at all, and then you'll get nothing.

Along these lines, if you are saving your roll for something better, and therefore use your off spec roll for something you'll actually use on your main spec, be aware that this opens the possibility that someone rolling for their off spec will actually win the item. This may seem globally inefficient, especially to you at the time, but is in fact "fair". If you really want the item for your main spec, and you're going to get upset if you don't get it, then use your main spec roll. (We apologize for any run-on sentences)

Closing remarks

I know this was a long LONG read about what should be a fairly simple system. I do wax pedantic from time to time, and I apologize.

I know that there will be times when this system will provide results that some people do not like. Generally, I'd say that those times will almost invariably be when those people don't get the piece of loot they wanted. Please remember that no system can possibly be perfect. Feel free to research loot systems on the internet. You will find that there are known flaws to any system, with long write-ups on those flaws. This system emphasizes simplicity, with the associated benefits and drawbacks.

Finally, I'd just like to say: This is a GAME. The whole point of it is to have fun. If you find yourself getting uptight about it at any time, I ask that you take a deep breath, and remember this most basic of facts: It's a game. Have fun. http://inquisitionofmuradin.wowstead.com/editor/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif"

blindpiggy
02-02-2009, 08:07 AM
Yeah we've discovered a few things we'd like to change in ours already...being that we have 0 separation for loot other than set or non-set we may be putting in something for Ulduar for the last echelon of loot. Perhaps grouping it with our set items so it's kept on a running tally as well. We will see, but Erichilles' system seems like it was built with the same ideas in mind of simplicity and keeping stuff fair.

Guthammer
02-07-2009, 05:56 AM
I run with Leftovers and I have to say the Shroud system they are using is the best I have seen in 10 years of raiding.

Shroud is simple, low overhead, anti-inflationary, and quite expandable. Leftovers has 14 active 25 man raid groups and about 30 active 10 man groups running over 100 raids a week. All of them use the same Shroud point system.

The shroud system itself is quite simple.

Points are earned on a per hour and per character basis. Obviously the points values are changeable, and this is how they are set up for Wrath:

2 points for showing up on time
1 point for every half hour of raiding
2 points for being at raid end

All points are earned at raid end.

We currently don't have anything for standbys.

Loots are distributed in a silent, fixed bid auction.

There are 3 bids that can be made: Shroud, standard or save.

Shrouding is the highest priority bid. The person with the most points wins if there are multiple shroud rolls. To shroud you must have 10 or more points and it costs you 10 points or half your point total. (Bidding shroud with 10 to 21 points costs you 10 points, shrouding with 22 points costs you 11, shrouding with 400 points costs you 200.)

Standard is the next highest priority, costing 10 points. If you have less than 10 points you simple go to 0 points. Standard rolls can be made at any time, even with 0 points. (Yes, new raiders can and are encouraged to bid standard on loot that is an upgrade for them.) If there are multiple save bids, a 1-100 roll off is used between everyone who sent in a bid.

Save is the lowest priority, indicating that you will save an item from becoming an Abyss Shard. Otherwise it works exactly like standard.

One of LO's mottoes is "Welcome to LO, here are you free epics" and we find this system works very well to create that effect. (The other is "Wipe on trash, one shot bosses".)

At the moment we have 2 points pools--one for 10 mans and one for 25s--so that you can't farm 10 man content and shroud bomb in 25 man raids.

eagledill
03-31-2009, 09:18 AM
You guys talking about how no loot system is fair didn't take economics in college did you?

Fair value - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_value)

"Fair" is not a black and white set of rules. Fair is what someone values something at. I think the issue is people are not ready enough to move to a guild that has a system that matches what they value.

If you value earning currency for every ounce of effort you put in and the ability to spend that currency over someone with less of the same currency, that implies you should be in a very different guild than if you value the right to show up once a month, participate in a 25 man, and get loot.

My point of view is guilds leaders should decide what they value and use the loot system to incentivize that. Members concerned about "fairness" should pick a guild that has a loot system that matches what they care about.

Eide
04-02-2009, 02:05 AM
It's an ancient thread, still going to add a few thoughts.

First of all, Loot is subjective. The value that people put into actually recieving loot determines the effort your guild has to put into making a system. In other words, if the primairy focus of people is to gain loot, you'll need a system to avoid lootwhoring, if your guild focusses on progression you need a system for progression etc etc. In that sense a loot system shows you the mentality and goals of your players.

The system my current guild uses is based on player responsibility. We basically have no loot rules at all, barring main raid spec > offspecs. Other than that we encourage our players to think for themselves and what works for the raid as a whole. We've had frequent passing on items because it's a bigger upgrade to someone else. It's a system that works perfectly, assuming the people have a high level of acceptance and tolerance of eachother. The additional bonus is that dividing loot takes maybe a minute. (although while our lootmaster is dividing loot, we're usually working on trash already again).

It's a system that highly subjective though. It's also very prone to instability when people do clash. We haven't seen that at all, but it's a potential hazard for this system. The plus side is that it reinforces the bond our players have with eachother (I wouldn't go as far as to say we're friends, but there's a very friendly atmosphere and respect toward oneanother). People genuinly appreciate the gestures that are made, and it's makes it a lot easier to accept when you don't get that item you've been waiting for weeks for. It also involves players in the raid on a whole different level, as they're not just thinking about their personal performance, they consider the raid performance.