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vorp
09-17-2007, 08:31 AM
Hey folks. Hope this is the right forum for this post.

Was hoping you could help me out with a little dilemma Iím having.

Background: Iím an assistant GM of a casual guild that is about to go into its first attempt at Kara, and a first raid attempt period. I have very little pre TBC raiding experience but more than 95% of our guildies. We are a solid group of friends, with varying gear levels and playing abilities.

My main character had been a mage, and I think I know that class very well. As my guild lacked a solid tank, I quickly leveled my gnome warrior up to 70, and have him geared up with the best blues I can grab from 5 man regular instances. I think my biggest weakness in tanking is my threat generation, and I am working on my smithing to get a high dps weapon (fireguard).

Recently, another 70 protection warrior rejoined the guild (Iím not entirely sure exactly why he left). He has armor smithing maxed and has many purple BoP crafted armor pieces. He clearly has better stam and mitigation than I do. The other officers have insisted that I will still be Main Tank and raidleader for our Kara next Monday. However, I feel that once they see that his ďoff-tankingĒ is better than my ďmain-tankingĒ, I think they will want to reverse our roles.

I may be being a bit childish about this whole thing, but itís frustrating in general. My main was my mage, which I really enjoyed and still enjoy playing. I really like my guildies and wanted to be able to walk through instances to get them ready for Kara. So I dropped leveling a rogue and got my warrior up to 70 in a hurry. Honestly, I enjoy being a tank moreso than my mage now, and so having this prot warrior with better gear than I do is driving me nuts. I *want* to be main tank.

I could link both of our armories if you think that would help (If you really wanted, you could probably find mine and his with a bit of detective work). Iím really looking for advice on how to handle the situation with him. Maybe it is as simple as realizing that he has better gear than I do, and should embrace my role as offtank. I donít want to feel like I wasted my energy on main tank when I could have been gearing up my mage further.

Thanks for your help,

Vorp

Ciderhelm
09-17-2007, 08:42 AM
Recently, another 70 protection warrior rejoined the guild (Iím not entirely sure exactly why he left).

This one line stands out to me.

Skill can be learned, gear will drop. Showing up on-time and being reliable for a guild, on the other hand, is something that runs deeper.

Find out why he left in the first place and what the issues were surrounding this. It is often the case that the guild is much better invested in a good tank with less gear than an unreliable one with more gear.

vorp
09-17-2007, 08:53 AM
I abstained from the vote to allow him back into the guild, while everyone else voted in the affirmative. I don't dislike him and I don't want to appear like a jerk. So I should be stubborn about it?

Athen
09-17-2007, 08:53 AM
I agree with Cider here.

Although your gear level may not be on par with the player that has rejoined the team, theres alot more to being the MT than your mitigation. It sounds like everyone is interested in maintaining you in that role, and I would encourage you to embrace the position that youre in. Items will drop that you will take off the earlier encounters that will boost your stats up, and the further you get in the more adept you will be at taking on the next challenges.

There may come times (in early stages) when your gear doesnt suit the level needed to advance through the encounter; these are the moments when you as the maintank can identify that and choose to put your OT on the mob instead. Being able to step back and direct your team while someone else tanks is as much of being a MT and raid leader as taking the hits.


EDIT*
A healthy MT and OT tank team is essential for the workings of later encounters.. people leave the game for various reasons, find out what happened and go from there... Dont worry about creating animosity between you two at this stage in the game. Continue you on in your MT position and train in that role with your team.

Bonerot
09-17-2007, 10:18 AM
Your gear is fine for Kara MTing as is his. Skill, personality & reliability are what should define who is the "MT" for Kara if both your gear is up to snuff.

You need to work together, your tanking team has to learn how each other plays and how to help your Kara team the most. Kara is going to require you both play well there are plenty of double tanked bosses as well as pulls requiring 2 tanks.

I honestly wouldn't want to tank and be the RL at the same time though, I prefer a caster does the RL stuff where they can be in the back and watching what everyone is doing. My attention is better spent on tanking.

You didn't mention your loot rules though, is there any reason you want to be the "MT" other then the fame & glory?

Aaesop
09-17-2007, 10:53 AM
I gotta agree with everyone else. Pointing back even to Joanadarks quote in the signature. It does really boil down to the person themselves, not the gear or class.
You want someone that's dedicated, hard working and observant, and being well liked never hurts.
This isn't to bash the warrior in question though. We don't know any of his story or about him but if your guild is wanting you in there, it has to stand for something. Esp when it comes to a tank standpoint. You simply cannot have a bad tank in a MT role since everything flows from that spot.
Like has been said, your guild wants you as MT its obvious as they've said themselves. There's more reason to it than co-g one would hope.
Like Ciderhelm said showing up and being reliable has big meaning. My own guild has had crazy geared people become aloof, only to have other people come in and do awesome and become rewarded by it with great gear.
As it stands, keep the nose to the dirt and keep working hard. Seems to me like your doing a great job if alot of people want you in there in that capacity :)

Kazeyonoma
09-17-2007, 11:01 AM
yep, you are the core of your group, gear will always change, but leadership and devotion cannot be "dropped" from bosses.

you gotta stand up for yourself, and take the role. be your best, and show em what it means to be the MT. Read a bit on how to be a raid leader in the blogs, you'll find some very very useful info there about how your attitude reflects greatly on your raid, and if you aren't gonna be confident in yourself, neither will your raid.

Flintridge
09-17-2007, 04:33 PM
As everyone else has said, gear and skill come from raiding being devoted to your group etc. doesnt drop from a boss. In the long run a person who is going to stay with the group and has shown the dedication and leadership one needs in raiding is far more valuable than an epic wtfpwn pew pew item. Stick with it and i think your group will value you much more as the MT/RL.

vorp
09-18-2007, 10:49 AM
Thanks much for the advice all and the votes of confidence. I appreciate your help.

vorp
09-26-2007, 10:34 AM
Hi guys. Just wanted to give you all an update.

Our guild made its first jaunt into Karazhan and we took down Attumen! I was really excited and proud of all the hard work they put into it. My goal was to just make it to the first boss, but we downed him. As for the tanking side of things, I worked well with the other tank. We switched off between main tanking and off tanking, and we had enough crowd control that normally we could both be on one target at once. I like to build threat initially with heroic strikes, shield bash, and revenge, while he likes taunt, conc. blow, and sunders. So when I would MT, he would be stacking sunders and I would still have threat. Of course having a high dps weapon like the Fireguard certainly helps, but he told me privately that he was glad we did so well together.

We are anxiously looking forward to downing Attumen once a week, and giving Moroes a valiant effort. He kicked our butts the first time, but downing the first boss with relative ease (my main healer dc'ed halfway through the fight) gave us a huge confidence boost.

Unrelated question. Does the Ballroom to the East of Moroes clear out once he is downed? We cleared both the room at the top of the stairs and the his room before we wiped to him. They all respawned once we got back. Are those mobs on a respawn timer, or do they respawn if you wipe to Moroes?

Lavache
09-26-2007, 11:12 AM
Unrelated question. Does the Ballroom to the East of Moroes clear out once he is downed? We cleared both the room at the top of the stairs and the his room before we wiped to him. They all respawned once we got back. Are those mobs on a respawn timer, or do they respawn if you wipe to Moroes?

the ballroom is all attached to moroes, along with the mobs upstairs on the way to the opera trash and maiden trash. the ballroom is on a 30minute or more timer, you probably were just moving slow - which happens on a first trip and learning the pulls. after a few weeks you will just chain pull most of that.

congrats on your success with attumen :D

Horacio
09-26-2007, 12:16 PM
I got into this thread late so what I would has mostly been said already. You put the work in and put yourself in a position to succeed. Gear will drop, experience will be gained....that's much less an issue than trust.

I made a post on my guild forums today about confidence and how it is more important than talent. If you camp out here and read up on the information this site has to offer, it will give you all you need in terms of mechanics (so long as you filter out the retards like Horacio....he don't know his arse from hot rocks) Arming yourself that way will give you all you need to work through Kara in a timely fashion.

megalomaniac
10-11-2007, 07:20 AM
The Main Tank must "Want" to be main tank. You also need to do whats best for the guild. If this guy only came back because he wants to be main tank , he has more gear and more skill, and really loves it then he should probably be the MT. Now if he is just a casual player, doesnt wantt o come to every raid, doesnt help guildies etc... you should take the role because you clearly want it.

Wanting or Having gear is one thing. Having the skill to be MT and really loving tanking is a whole diff ballgame.

Tristessa
10-11-2007, 04:53 PM
Congratulations vorp, I'm actually in a similar position as you where raid progression is concerned.

I find that it's a bit more...logical (?) or convenient to have the raid leader as the MT. We have a Feral Druid as OT for our raid, and thankfully he's mature and just about as driven as me where gear and progression is concerned. Our first entry into Kara as a guild had him marking and pulling on the trash mobs pre-Moroes--this was one of the advantages of the Assistant role in raids, and I'm thankful for that. :D

swipe
10-16-2007, 02:53 AM
In my opinion the best classes to be raidleaders/tactical leaders for the raid is a ranged dps class. They can concentrate more on the big view of things and make timely call outs and such.

Your mage will make a perfect raidleader imo, assuming the tank roles are filled :)

Clifford
10-16-2007, 03:38 AM
Unrelated question. Does the Ballroom to the East of Moroes clear out once he is downed? We cleared both the room at the top of the stairs and the his room before we wiped to him. They all respawned once we got back. Are those mobs on a respawn timer, or do they respawn if you wipe to Moroes?
As stated before they are on a respawn timer. I would advise that you limit the amount of these mobs that you clear. My suggestion:
(1) AoE the two groups of non-elites near the top of the stairs (pull onto stairs)
(2) Kill the four elites that walk around (pull onto stairs)
(3) Kill the elite standing guard near the pillars to the banquet room (pull onto stairs). Don't bother killing the group of elites.
(4) Thereafter move the raid to the top of the stairs and left into the south west corner.
(5) Have a tank pull the skeletons and the non-elites at the first table into the corner and AoE them.
(6) Move into the banquet hall and pick up any stray skeleton ushers.
(7) Clear the rest of the room.

This should leave you with maximum time to wipe and retry on Moroes.

Razmo
10-16-2007, 03:48 AM
If you just kill the 4 elites and the 2 groups @ stairs, clear the moroes room, you got loads of time to atleast try him like 6 times. Kill his helpers first then nuke moroes. Not a very hard fight.

You can reset the room so you have enough time to try different tactics.

vorp
10-17-2007, 10:01 AM
Thanks all for the continued help.

Tristessa: I wish you the best of luck with your guild!

Clifford, Razmo: Thanks for the advice. We've been finding it hard to keep the shackle up on the mobs. It seems to break too quickly. Our pally fears one, and we have two survival hunters who keep another busy. But its the shackled mob that wipes us.

Swipe: I would love to raid with my mage. Can't wait. Then I'll get to see if my beloved deep frost spec is raidworthy lol. But that sounds like fun.

Now all I need to do is get my offtank to stop taunting mobs off me that I have solid threat on. That gets old in a hurry.

Ghantu
10-17-2007, 04:09 PM
The one thing about shackling Moroes' friends that you have to be really careful about is their special abilities. If you're shackling the prot warrior (and why wouldn't you? :p), when it breaks, if he gets into melee with the priest, he'll shield bash him, locking him out of holy so he can't re-shackle, and kill him. Similarly, the Ret paladin has Hammer of Justice, and will stun the would-be shackler and kill him. There are lots of ways to handle it, but it's something the priests and the tanks both need to be aware of.

Also, having your offtank taunt things off of you when you already have good threat on them is not necessarily bad: it increases his threat up to yours and gives him aggro, giving him more rage so he can build more threat. Then you taunt him back, and you just got all the threat your OT generated, free! Of course, it's really not necessary on most trash, and bosses tend to be untauntable, but as long as you communicate, it's not necessarily a bad idea.

Crimsonstorm
10-17-2007, 04:47 PM
Why would you ever shackle the prot warrior? He doesnt do ANYTHING.

Tristessa
10-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Tristessa: I wish you the best of luck with your guild!
Thanks mate. =p

What we did was mark the 4 patrolling elites in the ballroom, then pulled 2 of them which pathed right in the middle of the first 2 AoE groups. Once those 2 elite and the 2 AoE groups are down, it should be safe to pull the remaining 2 elites from either the left or the right of the stairs.

I don't know if it's safe to start pulling from inside the Ballroom or not from here and skipping the group past the first AoE group in front of the stairs (the 4-pull elites) though. Can anyone enlighten us on this one? ^_^;

Morthengel
10-18-2007, 05:21 AM
For your threat generation problem, Fireguard will not solve it. Read some advanced tanking guides. You are probably skipping something.

A higher dps weapon is only a few % improvement.

On my Kara days, I was generating higher threat with crappy Millenium Blade than our OT with Fireguard.

Razmo
10-18-2007, 05:29 AM
We've been finding it hard to keep the shackle up on the mobs. It seems to break too quickly. Our pally fears one, and we have two survival hunters who keep another busy. But its the shackled mob that wipes us.



Have a look @ http://www.wowwiki.com/Moroes Be sure to shackle the right targets.

We shackle 2, trap one and slow one down with rogue and the frosts bolts. Works good. Who needs pallys ;)

vorp
10-18-2007, 11:31 AM
For your threat generation problem, Fireguard will not solve it. Read some advanced tanking guides. You are probably skipping something.

A higher dps weapon is only a few % improvement.

On my Kara days, I was generating higher threat with crappy Millenium Blade than our OT with Fireguard.

Fireguard works great, and I have worked out my threat problem just fine. The original post was a month ago or so.

madocks
12-11-2007, 06:55 PM
Our first moroes kill was done in easy mode, we brought 3 priests to shackle 3 - killed 1 add then went for moroes. Shackles are easier to maintain if you use a focus macro


Click on your target, then use this macro:
/focus

This will keep "Focus" on your target through out the fight.

Then when you want to schackle, use this:
(allows you to heal MT/OT whatever , schackle mob, and return to your original target automatically)
/cast [target=focus,harm] Shackle Undead; [harm] Shackle Undead
/stopmacro [target=focus,noharm]

Don't forget to reshackle every 5-15 seconds.

When mob is dead, click on blank area of screen and use your focus button to "realease" the focussed mob.

These days it depends how many priests we have in the raid, we have killed with only 1 priest, but that wasnt too fun.

If we have 2 priests we shackle 2, our dps warrior tanks 1 in his dps kit and shield. Then the last mob is kited until we can move our dps onto him.

Shortypop
12-12-2007, 05:40 AM
I'd add that part of the problem with shackles is that priests aren't used to cc'ing and keeping an eye on them. As they get more used to shackling and constantly redoing it if needed it should get easier.

Ideally you want the prot warrior - OT him. Shackle as many as you can, burn any non-cleansing other adds and if you have a hunter spare get him to trap infront of the priests - a mage can also be back-up frost nova to give the priests a few more seconds to re-shackle.

If you're using a pally to fear one, burn it down as fast as possible you dont want Moroes resetting at 20% :)

Remind dwarves, pallies, frost mages that they can all get out of the garrote if needed.

Good luck.

Mordigen
12-12-2007, 02:01 PM
Cooperation with the OT is important, you need to make sure you are both on the same page and work out any problems you may have, atleast for the guilds sake. I usually do the marking and have our guild leader (a preist or holy pally) do the actual directing and overseeing of the raid (loot, strat with discussion if needed). As for Moroes, taking out 2 -3 mobs before moving to Moroes seemed to work for my guild. If your priests are confident and skilled, then shackling will work, but pally fear is a gable if they run out of the room. We usually burn down the shadowpriest first, ice traps infront of priest, shackle a plate wearer or 2 depending on the group, and kill any other cloth wearer next. Now we are to the point where we shackle pally, kill cloth priest and pally, and the MT and OT on Moroes and warrior. It all depends on which adds spawn for the fight too. Good luck to you and read up on this site like Horacio said and you will learn alot. Wanting and enjoying to be the MT is a huge part, and learning the skills is the next. Gear will come and get upgraded and upgraded again, as will the rest of you raid group and you all will get better.