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Malarim
09-08-2007, 01:33 PM
WoW Forums -> Blood Frenzy and Enrage swap. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=1531043608&sid=1)

I recently posted this is the warrior forums to perhaps help getting some momentum going behind this. With the impact the windfury totem nerf had on 33/28 raid viability, am I the only one who thinks it's time Blizzard screwed their heads on right and switched these talents which are blatantly in the wrong trees?

fastidius
09-10-2007, 04:14 PM
The nefr hurt us but having said that swapping the trees unbalances the PVP world so don't expect it.

If they want to correct something regarding DPS warriors and the nerf id expect it to be something involving formulas ...

psychostomp
09-10-2007, 04:25 PM
while the nerf did hurt to some degree 33/28 is still very viable. If you think otherwise please refer to any WWS from a guild called Blood Legion check their #2 dps yes serida is not #1 but then again if u see his/her competition (Furi) you will understand why.

Malarim
09-11-2007, 11:45 PM
The nefr hurt us but having said that swapping the trees unbalances the PVP world so don't expect it.

Uh, how exactly? An actual counterargument would be nice and all.


while the nerf did hurt to some degree 33/28 is still very viable. If you think otherwise please refer to any WWS from a guild called Blood Legion check their #2 dps yes serida is not #1 but then again if u see his/her competition (Furi) you will understand why.

The problem in my opinion though is you still need windfury, even in it's nerfed form, to make 33/28 really viable. You can still do wicked dps as fury without any support classes.

Korintar
09-12-2007, 12:46 AM
Uh, how exactly? An actual counterargument would be nice and all.

There are two reasons I feel that this will not happen:

1) By placing Enrage in the Arms tree, you effectively give the preffered PvP spec 25% more damage. Considering the high burst damage potential of this spec already, that adds up to being over-powered. Think of the huge hits that are common for MS Warriors, then add 25% (and because it is a percentage, it scales, so the bigger the hits, the better the return).

2) If Blizzard wanted Fury Warriors to have access to Blood Frenzy, it would not be buried 30 points deep into the Arms tree. Period. In the same way that One Handed Weapon Specialization, or the Mace and Polearm Specializations would make a deep Fury build over-powered, so would an additional 4% damage for Fury Warriors that also gave a debuff to the target.

Vold
09-12-2007, 09:43 AM
In addition to what Korintar said, which deals with game balance, there's also the original design theme to think about. The Fury tree was originally designed around critting and being crit to go along with the whole berserker theme. Take a look at the talents and you'll see what I mean. Cruelty increases crit chance, Blood Craze requires you to be crit, Enrage requires you to be crit, Flurry procs when you crit, etc.

This is why Enrage fits into the Fury tree and should imo stay there.

Stonehoof
09-12-2007, 09:55 AM
I kinda see the Arms tree as also the debuff tree in a way as well. Since getting the improved shouts does not take that much of an investment in fury.

Imp TC has always been there, and blood frenzy kinda showed to me at least that they may in the expansion give more debuff abilities to that tree or even buffing abilities. Fury to me have always been about raw damage.

Malarim
09-13-2007, 02:13 PM
1) By placing Enrage in the Arms tree, you effectively give the preffered PvP spec 25% more damage. Considering the high burst damage potential of this spec already, that adds up to being over-powered. Think of the huge hits that are common for MS Warriors, then add 25% (and because it is a percentage, it scales, so the bigger the hits, the better the return).

You're a blithering idiot if you don't have enrage with ANY pvp build. If anything, it will make it harder to access, because going 33 points into arms cuts out some other pvp builds.


In addition to what Korintar said, which deals with game balance, there's also the original design theme to think about. The Fury tree was originally designed around critting and being crit to go along with the whole berserker theme.

And Paladins were originally supposed to be melee raid buffers, and priests were supposed to be the ultimate healers. Look at them now. Their roles have changed a lot.

Just because they had an original design intention for a tree doesn't mean Blizzard to stick to it no matter the cost. The fact of the matter is, Fury is not longer a berserker tree in the classic sense, it is just a brute force damage tree now. Getting hit in a raiding environment is bad. Getting hit in a pvp environment with enrage is good. Yet they are in the polar opposite trees. Ironically, enrage is very easy to get for a pvp warrior, while blood frenzy is impossible to get unless you go with 33/28, which is no where near as effective as it used to be.

Vold
09-14-2007, 11:32 AM
Just because they had an original design intention for a tree doesn't mean Blizzard to stick to it no matter the cost.

I wasn't saying that Blizz has to stick with it, nor was I saying that the original design intention was still valid. I was simply explaining why Enrage was originally placed in the Fury tree.

I still don't think they should be swapped personally. Putting a talent like Enrage, which requires you to be crit to activate, into the 7th tier of the PvP talent tree does not sound like a good idea to me in light of the current resilience-heavy PvP landscape..

Signu
09-14-2007, 11:36 AM
Blizzard isn't going to change the talent trees to satisfy a hybrid build. If you want to do better PvE dps, put more points into Fury.

Malarim
09-15-2007, 09:51 PM
I wasn't saying that Blizz has to stick with it, nor was I saying that the original design intention was still valid. I was simply explaining why Enrage was originally placed in the Fury tree.

I still don't think they should be swapped personally. Putting a talent like Enrage, which requires you to be crit to activate, into the 7th tier of the PvP talent tree does not sound like a good idea to me in light of the current resilience-heavy PvP landscape..

They could always juggle the placement. Point is still, they are in the wrong trees. Just as Imp SnD and Backstab were in the wrong trees for rogues, so are these two talents. In my mind they are talents of equivalent power, yet are in completely ass backwards places. A pvp build without Enrage is retarded, yet it is impossible for a good fury build to get Blood Frenzy. I believe this is wrong.


Blizzard isn't going to change the talent trees to satisfy a hybrid build. If you want to do better PvE dps, put more points into Fury.

This is the...most useless point I have ever seen any make. I'm not even talking about bleedin' hybrid builds. Put more points into fury? Yes, because 61 point Fury is the BEST RADE DEEPZ EVAR.

Aelvain
09-17-2007, 01:37 AM
I wasn't saying that Blizz has to stick with it, nor was I saying that the original design intention was still valid. I was simply explaining why Enrage was originally placed in the Fury tree.

I still don't think they should be swapped personally. Putting a talent like Enrage, which requires you to be crit to activate, into the 7th tier of the PvP talent tree does not sound like a good idea to me in light of the current resilience-heavy PvP landscape..

You are misinformed. Crits that are changed to regular hits as a result of resilience still activate Enrage.

Nicki
09-17-2007, 04:09 AM
Hybrid arms works because of 2 fury talents...
Flurry
Improved slam

Blood frenzy is nice because it increases raid damage and it is only 2 points. If you limit melee dps taking a hybrid arms warrior with blood frenzy will help all the rogue's dps =) and if he can use slam well his dps is going to be good, honest to god i was shocked how much DPS the arms hybrid pulled out by using slam. His damage output was about 31% melee, 30% slam, The rest broken up into other things... =\ The dps is good as it stands but the enviroment for melee in raids is almost pathetic...

Aelvain
09-17-2007, 10:20 PM
The dps is good as it stands but the enviroment for melee in raids is almost pathetic...

This is accurate in SSC/TK for the most part, but very wrong in BT/Hyjal. Melee is as good as ranged dps on most fights, and superior on several (low armor bosses, Kaz'rogal, etc.).

Teragon
09-23-2007, 07:42 AM
i would like to ask of you to calm down and not flame anyone Malarim.

it is not appreciated by Ciderhelm nor the rest of the tankspot community

Rhaeti
09-25-2007, 12:54 AM
I like this idea.