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Igrado
08-28-2007, 02:13 PM
This guide is drastically out of date, and only applied prior to the release of Wrath of the Lich King. The thread has not been deleted yet, probably for the sake of posterity; however...
For current content, please disregard virtually everything you read herein.

Last Updated : 2007-12-21 (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)
Status: This Guide is obsolete since release of Wrath of the Lich King (World of Warcraft version 3.0) (2008-11-13).





Last Updated : 2007-12-21 (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)

The following posts are particularly intended to better inform Guild Masters, Raid Leaders, Officers, and other interested parties of the basics of Paladin tanking, its strengths, and its weaknesses. This is not intended to teach a Paladin how to tank; rather, it's intent is to inform those who wish to learn more on this matter. It's purpose is to be a starting point for any guild leader who is just beginning to use a Tankadin, or is considering recruiting a Tankadin, and wishes to learn more.

An Officers Guide to the Paladin Tank is contained in its entirety in the following post, followed by some specific examples of the information covered in the guide. The Guide will be as short and to the point as reasonable, with the examples, and possibly future follow-up posts, used to expound further on the topic of Paladin Tanking.

Please share this guide freely with your guildmates and friends, but be sure to provide a link back to the source here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936). The version located on the MainTankadin forums will be the first copy updated any time changes are made.

Igrado
08-28-2007, 02:14 PM
Last Updated : 2007-12-21 (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)
Status: This Guide is obsolete since release of Wrath of the Lich King (World of Warcraft version 3.0) (2008-11-13).

For current content, please disregard virtually everything you read herein.


An Officers Guide to the Paladin Tank

Basics:

Paladin threat is generated almost exclusively through Holy Damage. Three Points in Righteous Fury increases all threat from Holy damage by 90%. All of the following tanking abilities are increased by the Paladins spell damage, though coefficients do apply.

* Avenger's Shield (a pulling tool) does 494 to 602 and jumps, hitting up to three targets total. It also will daze those targets.
* Exorcism does 619 to 691 damage to a single undead or demon target at up to 30 yards.
* A target that has Judgment of the Crusader on it will have its Holy damage taken increased by up to 219.
* Seal of Righteousness adds Holy damage to each swing of the Paladin's weapon.
* Judgment of Righteousness does 208 to 228 Holy Damage.
* Holy Shield, when activated, does 155 Holy Damage per block.
* Consecration is a 10-yd AOE doing 512 Holy Damage per target over 8 seconds.
* Retribution Aura does 26 when struck and Blessing of Sanctuary does 46 upon a block.
* Avenging Wrath is available every 3 minutes and increases all damage done by the Tankadin by 30% for 20 seconds.
* Blessing of Sacrifice is available every 30 seconds, and transfers 45-104 damage per hit from the target to the tankadin for 20 seconds.


Tankadin Strengths:

* AOE tanking. Paladins have a strong ability to AOE tank, particularly against melee heavy mob groups. Consecration, Retribution Aura, Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanctuary produce large amounts of threat against an unlimited number of mobs.
* Crush "Immune". Properly geared Tankadins can be uncrushable before even entering Karazhan. In fact, overall they are more dependably uncrushable than Warriors as Improved Holy Shield grants 8 charges over 10 seconds.
* Fast/Burst Threat. Due to the way many of the mechanics work and the fact that Paladins start with a full mana bar, Tankadins can frontload threat very quickly. This allows DPS to open up against the target sooner. Additionally, the daze effect of Avenger's Shield will make sheep easier to place away from the Raid. This mechanic also allows the Paladin extremely strong burst threat for phase changes mid-battle. (credit: HonorsHammer, Cordelia)
* Long-range Taunt. While the Righteous Defense taunt is on a 15-second cooldown, it has a 40 yard range and will also taunt 3 targets off the teammate receiving Righteous Defense. As an alternative, Avenger's Shield can be used at 30 yards, easily giving over 1000 threat on up to 3 targets. (credit: HonorsHammer)
* High Threat. When main tanking a mob or boss, particularly one which does a frequent number of melee strikes, Paladin threat will build very high over the course of the fight. This increased threat ceiling allows for DPS to push themselves more and more without fear of pulling aggro, increasing overall raid DPS. (credit: Cordelia)
* Scalable Threat. Due to the high holy damage multiplier given by Improved Righteous Fury, paladin threat is easily scaled upwards to meet the needs of an encounter by stacking spelldamage and holy spell damage via gear swapping and consumables. (credit: Cordelia)
* Reactive Threat Generation. A MT Paladin can generate close to 75% of his base threat without engaging in active melee. This can be especially helpful against bosses who have reflective melee damage, or parry mechanics. (credit: Cordelia)
* CCers Protection. The many ranged threat abilities Paladins enjoy, along with the long-duration static-placement AOE spell Consecration, allow a Paladin to excell in situations where trash or boss adds are being CC'ed. The Paladin can act as protection of the vulnerable CCers by gaining initial aggro on mobs to be CC'ed from long range and providing insurance against accidental CC break or death of the player responsible for crowd control. (credit: Joanadark)
* Group Composition. While a peripheral benefit, it is still notable that in most cases a tank group will include a Paladin for their auras, regardless of the spec of the Paladin. If a Paladin Tank is employed, they will be bestowing the same auras on the other tanks in the tank group, while freeing up an additional spot in the tank group for including another utility raid member, such as a Shaman for Windfury Totem or a Druid for their Tree of Life healing increase aura, while still having the same number of total tanks. Having a paladin tank also donates an additional blessing to all raid members. (credit: Joanadark)
* Active Judgment. Because a MT or OT Paladin will melee, a judgment can easily be maintained on the target. Judgment of Light can help with healing melee dps in fights with small AE components. Judgment of wisdom can help mana-based dps maintain a higher level of mana, thus helping with long term dps. Improved Judgement of the Crusader will increase the crit chance of anyone attacking that target by 3 percent. (credit: Cordelia)
* Avoidance of tank CC. Using Blessing of Sacrifice, a tankadin can avoid certain types of CC such as gouge, sheep, and breakable fear. (credit: Cordelia)


Tankadin weaknesses:

* Silence. Any long lasting silence will shut down a Paladins ability to cast causing threat to slow or even stop. Additionally, if Holy Shield falls off, the Paladin will become susceptible to crushing blows.
* Fear. On multiple occasions Paladins can and have successfully MT'd bosses that fear. Paladins have 2 bubbles that can be used to overcome this and of course the PVP trinket. Fear is an inconvenience, not a game breaker for a prepared Paladin. In addition, tremor totems are a valid way to help handle fear.
* Mana Burn. Mana Burn can seriously hurt the Paladins threat generation capacity, especially initial front-loading, as well as increase the damage they take uniquely among the tanking classes. (credit: Joanadark)
* Mana Dependency. A Paladin without mana is a Paladin without threat and susceptible to crushing blows; however, a Paladin recieves mana back from heals recieved. Due to a change in mid '07 mana is no longer recieved from over-healing. For this reason Paladins often struggle in OT'ing roles when compared to a druid as these roles are often are accompanied by decreased damage taken. An over-geared Paladin could have similar mana problems but should simply downgrade his gear. Additionally, Holy Shield provides a significant part of the Paladins threat but obviously does not proc when the Paladin is not being struck.


Recent Changes:

* Stamina. Previously Paladin tanks had around 1200 fewer hitpoints compared to similarly geared Druids and Warriors. This is no longer the case as the changes to the Combat Expertise talents in patch 2.3 place a properly specced Tankadin at no notable disadvantage in this area. A Paladin tank with a typical tanking spec will gain a 16% boost from Stamina. Druids gain 45% and Warriors, 5%.

Igrado
08-28-2007, 02:16 PM
Specific Examples and Explanations
by Cordelia



AOE tanking
While this is commonly thought of as most useful during trash pulls, it is also extremely useful for dual-boss situations. In cases that traditionally require 2 tanks, the Tankadin can very effectively hold high threat on both mobs, as long as the tankadin has enough effective health to survive spike damage.

Examples:
* Attumen & Nightbane
* Karazhan ballroom trash
* Moroes and his adds
* Romulo & Julienne
* Wizard of Oz
* Murlocs on Tidewalker
* Hydross adds
* Mt Hyjal trash



Crush Immunity
Due to 8 charges over 10 seconds, it is almost impossible for a raid boss to use up the charges on Holy Shield.

Examples:
* Prince Malchezzar
* Illidan


Fast/Burst Threat
Examples:
* Curator evocation phase
* Illhoof increased damage phase
* Prince Malchezzar Phase 2
* Hydross phase change
* Doomwalker phase change
* Leotheras whirlwind aggro dump



Long-range Taunt
Examples:
* Doomwalker
* Olm the Summoner



High Threat
Examples:
* Curator
* Gruul



CCers Protection
One of the least understood mechanics of Paladin tanking, the fundamental concept is that the Tankadin should stack intial threat prior to cc, so that when cc breaks, it is the tankadin who is the target, not the cc'er. Rather than listing encounters, the examples will describe techniques. Used correctly, this can prevent many inadvertent wipes due to CC breaking, and a mob running amok among clothies (who do most of the cc'ing).

Examples:
* Avenger's Shield followed by sheep.
* Avenger's Shield/Exorcism followed by Shackle Undead.
* Avenger's Shield followed pulling the pack of mobs through and ice block trap. This method cannot target a particular mob to be cc'd, and most often will cc the closest mob.
* Initial aggro can be stacked on up to 4 non-undead targets via Avenger's Shield, Judgment of Righteousness, and a small amount of aggro can be stacked on any number of mobs by pulling them through a Consecration.
* Ideally, CC should occur before the mobs enter melee range, and the tankadin should keep consecration up on the actively tanked mob, so that cc'd mobs have to run through the tankadin's consecration to get to the rest of the raid.
* Avenger's shield greatly simplifies CC, as it will daze targets.
* Avenger's shield should not be used on targets that need to be ice trapped by the hunter in a separate place from the immediate path from mob to tankadin.



Group Composition
Obviously, both Devotion Aura and Retribution Aura will benefit a tank group in terms of Mitigation and Threat. Concentration Aura will benefit casters in encounters where interrupts are an issue. The following is a list of classes that are beneficial to group with a tankadin.

Examples:
* Warrior. Via Commanding shout, Demo shout, and Thunderclap, warriors can provide extra health and mitigation to the Tankadin.
* Warlocks. Via Blood Pact, the warlock's imp can provide extra health.
* Shadow Priest. Vampiric Embrace provides mitigation and mana from Spiritual Attunement. Vampiric Touch provides mana directly. Mana is directly translated into Tankadin threat.
* Shaman. Windfury and Wrath of Air totems both increase Paladin threat. Grace of Air can provide mitigation.
* Retribution Paladin. Provides a vast threat increase via Sanctity Aura, and Judgment of the Crusader. Provides mitigation by keeping Judgment of Light from a holy paladin refreshed. Provides an increase in raid DPS via Santified Crusader.



Active Judgment.
Judgment of Wisdom procs not only on melee attacks, but spells, wands, and ranged auto-attack. Judgment of Light procs only off melee attacks.

Examples:
* Judgment of Wisdom. Provides mana regen to the raid on a scale similar to Shadow Priests' vampiric touch. For casters who go OOM, using a fast wand to auto-attack will provide burst mana regen.
* Judgment of Light. Provides 95 healing to melee dps on 50% of attacks. Greatly beneficial to dual-wielders, resulting in healing in excess of 100 hps. Very helpful in encounters where melee dps takes extra damage that needs to be healed by the healers.
* Judgment of Justice. Prevents melee trash from fleeing encounters and drawing adds. Will also decrease movement speed of kited mobs.
* Judgment of the Crusader. Increases holy damage done benefitting threat and retadin dps. Improved Seal of the Crusader (if talented) provides raid-wise dps boost, increasing all crit chances on the recipient target by 3%.



Reactive Threat Generation.
A Paladin has passive and reactive threat generated from Holy Shield, Retribution Aura, Blessing of Sanctuary, Spiritual Attunement, Seal Refreshes. A Paladin has non-melee threat generated from Exorcism, Consecration, Judgment, Avenger's Shield(if applicable), Healing(if applicable). It has been shown that Tankadins can completely disengage certain bosses and still hold very high threat. Disengaging has the advantage of eliminating reflective damage and parry damage.

Examples:
* Prince Melchazzar
* Kael'thas



Avoidance of tank CC
Examples:
* Moroes. A true OT is tanking Moroes on this encounter. A non-cloth wearer should stay 2nd on the aggro list for Moroes. This player should remain close to, or in melee range of Moroes. The tankadin should place Blessing of Sacrifice on the this player shortly before a gouge is expected. Moroes will gouge the tankadin, attack the 2nd on the aggro list, immediately un-gouging the tankadin, and Moroes will retarget the tankadin.


(The "Specific Examples and Explanations" section of this guide was developed by Cordelia. Many thanks for this great effort.)

Igrado
08-28-2007, 02:16 PM
Raid Level Boss Guide - Tankadin Evaluation

For more boss-specific overviews, please see Cordelia's Raid Level Boss Guide - Tankadin Evaluation (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=3619). The Raid Level Boss Guide briefly states how a Paladin is advanted or disadvantaged in comparison to use of a simlarly geared Warrior or Druid. This guide can be a great help as you coordinate your Guild's tanking team for maximum effectiveness, particularly on new encounters.

Igrado
08-28-2007, 02:16 PM
final holder

Ciderhelm
08-29-2007, 08:23 AM
This is really good. I'm going to be putting together a specific area of the website where this will be useful. :)

veneretio
08-29-2007, 08:41 AM
This is great information. A couple comments/questions:

1. (+) seems better than (-) for the strengths portion.
2. I'd like more development on the Fear portion as to how difficult it is to accomplish and how long it can be sustained.
3. High Threat. About how much more than Warriors can we expect here in terms of TPS? Do they beat Druids too? Are there any situations where their Threat won't be as high due to Resistance or something along that lines?

Kazeyonoma
08-29-2007, 09:57 AM
Nice guide, pasted to guild forum since we currently have no prot pallies and will probably use one in future progression.

Baelor
08-31-2007, 09:31 AM
Quick note, Joana mentioned Divine Shield's cooldown. It is 5 minutes, down to 4 minutes talented.

veneretio
08-31-2007, 11:01 AM
tremor totem making the entire discussion moot cannot be garenteed.
A lot of great advice thank you, but I should note that if you've ever had to rely on Tremor Totem you realize how incredibly ineffective and un-reliable it is.

Ceravantes
09-10-2007, 11:29 PM
I run with a prot pally on pretty much every 25 man I have yet been in, and while his tps has always been respectable, even when taking reactive damage, he has been unable to meet or exceed our other tanks in front end, or sustained TPS. I personally out gear him by a fair amount, but my other Tanks are very similarly geared. I was always under the impression that, as said above, front end threat from a paladin was generally better, using this assumption, I generally
have him tank the first killed mob in any group with non cc'able mob's, and while it isn't every time, he does seem to have trouble keeping threat in the first 10-15 second's of the fight, and indefinitely on non tauntable mobs.

I realize the first thing you would think of would be dps going to hard, to fast. However, I have personally, as well as my other warrior (Feral druid has not tried) have taken initial threat, and maintained throughtout the fight with said Paladin picking up a mob killed later in the kill order without any issue.

So, is this an issue of a lack of +dmg, incorrect ability usage, or perhaps just sub par player skill? any idea's or advice I could pass along? I would prefer to not have to replace him as a tank if possible, but I need a reliable tank, who can hold threat.

Ceravantes
09-10-2007, 11:34 PM
In response to the problems with Bosskiller's strat's, theya re generally written by people involved is the first handful of kills (many are outdated now due to misc nerf's etc) where, becuase of various abilities and itemization, it is easier to use a warrior to tank. I am not bashing paladin viability or anything like that, just that generally speaking, pushing new content quickly is done better/easier with a warrior tanking, and the guide's are written in that time frame, when the content is still cutting edge.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 12:03 PM
The Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Boddy)

I think you are correct that there is a bias in alot of the top end guilds against prot paladin's, I often hear people say "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" While I agree that this is an unjustified bias, The basis behind the original Strat's posted on Bosskillers and sites like it, are that viability for other classes ability to tank cutting edge content is signifigantly lower than a warrior's, If the author's of these guides are unwilling to agree that at this point in itemization a prot paladin is unable to tank some, if not all, of them is incorrect, and like you said hurting more than helping. I personally still tank all new content for my guild, but on things we have been passed, if another class is mroe fit to it I am not so egotistical, or obsessed with being the "MT" that I would not let someone else do it.

I feel that the best choice for tanking new content is generally going to be a warrior, the loss of effective health from stacking spell damage in a few slot's hurts, and Druids are hurt by Crushing blows, and the damage they can do in cat is miles beyond what a prot warrior or paladin can do.

Klimpen
09-11-2007, 02:46 PM
-gimmick encounters where Silence and Mana-burn mechanics are in play, as well as where spell reflect is required to merely survive.
-Inability to break fears under high-pressure circumstances like Archimonde (other examples of fear such as Nightbane can be worked around without too much trouble) without reliance on fear ward or double tremor totems.

Just wanted to highlight these two points as major failings in the game as it stands right now, and I'd prolly add Magic-Immune to the first.

Any encounter which requires a specific Class (not Role) is a bad one, in my opinion. I'm quite sure that it would be near impossible for a Paladin to tank a progression Archimonde without FearWard/Tremor, which it would be significantly easier for a Warrior to.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 03:24 PM
There is no itemization impediment to paladins tanking bosses. Nothing in our gear prevents us tanking.
In terms of effective health, there is a difference indeed. There is a 1.2k ish baseline hp difference, combined with the stam you get from your gun slot (though that must be balanced with the 90 block value we get in that slot).

Now compare that difference to that between you and a bear.

The Difference in My Effective health, and my druid tanks is not incredible, as druids can easily cap armor reduction in Kara and are left with Stamina and Dodge, While Warrior's and Paladin's continue to obtain more of these stats as guilds progress, signifigantly lowering the gap in effective health, For example, The feral Tank I have been Raiding with since Kara, has no upgradeable piece of gear from content we have taken down, and I nearly match him in hp ( a few hundred off) and am only about 8% behind on dr through armor, couple that wiith the additional mitigation from block and parry and there you go. Druid's don't scale as well beyond the earlier content, while our classes do.


We are the antithesis of the druid approach. Warriors are strong by nature of falling somewhere in the middle.

I could not agree with this statement more, and it is one of the reason's I made the argument in the first place. If you go back, I speak of pushing content beyond your gear level's, Why would a guild gear the Druid, or the Paladin in top end tanking gear, when the Warrior does exactly what you said, he falls right in the middle, his crush immunity is less reliable, but eh has it. His Threat Generation (from what I have seen) on single target boss encounters is higher than other available tanking classes. He has those "Oh Shit" button's that we all know and love.

This is, as I said before, How I feel about New Content



The REAL limiting factors are:
-lack of cooldown abilities like shield wall and last stand to recover from disasters. This is something blizzard has acknowledged working on and word is should be addressed in the patch following Zul'Aman.
-gimmick encounters where Silence and Mana-burn mechanics are in play, as well as where spell reflect is required to merely survive.
-Inability to break fears under high-pressure circumstances like Archimonde (other examples of fear such as Nightbane can be worked around without too much trouble) without reliance on fear ward or double tremor totems.
-Less damage mitigation against elemental magic, though in the first place that is something warriors are directly suited for as we are directly suited for fast-paced physical damage mitigation, representing a healthy difference not a crippling factor, and in the second place a large number of anti-spell casting tanking is more commonly done by warlocks than by any of the tanking classes.

-The way I understood Seal of Protection ( think this is what you are reffering to) is that it gives you 30% additional hp over 58 seconds(unsure as to the 18 second time given to reach the 10 maximum stacks is factored into the 40 second duration, which would mean only 22 seconds of 130% hp, assuming the mobs attack speed was 1.8) he Judgment however seems incredible, assuming this wasn't capped, Like ap reduction. I think it would increase the inclusion of prot paladins exponentially, wether they were actually tanking the boss or not.

-A problem for Blood Elves with no fear ward, Can be worked around with tremor totems, But if possible I would not bother with it.

-Nothing to say to the last one.



If you argue that Paladins have the disadvantage of taking a larger amount of damage in a given encounter, I might agree with you.
However, in that same encounter, the paladin may have the simultaneous advantage of being easier to heal and keep alive, due to their superior control over damage inflow.

Taking Larger amounts of Damage can be death on New content, but a Paladin is a strong choice for content of your current gear level.


And it would be possible to continue arguing that the paladin has the disadvantage of requiring greater discipline from the healers (although steady damage intake tends to mean the truth is the reverse), and I might agree with you again.
However, there would be the consideration of the Paladin's higher threat-potential in terms of initial lead as well as sustained, as well as ability to control the boss, leading to a faster kill due to fewer casualties as well as freeing threat-capped DPS to push harder.

There are pros and cons to both approaches here, and I think it should be done more on a case by case basis, as it depends on healer composition/skill etc.

I have said before, I have yet to see either sustained, or lead in threat greater than either of my Warrior's I run with (provided we don't miss etc, so perhaps more situational) but it could be the gear/skill of my current prot pally ( my original reason for posting here, perhaps I got off topic)


The point is that these things are relative.

While it is true that paladins will never be as good at being warriors as warriors are, using a comparison purely based on your own strengths will give you a conclusion that is both incomplete and potentially self-limiting.


People have used warriors to tank for a long time. They are used to them. Raiders and Raid Leaders know what works with a prot warrior.

I agree that we should not judge other tanking classes based on the warrior class, each has its strengths and weakness's, warriors generally being somewhere in the middle. Which is on reason, I think, they are used as often as they are.



A progression raid can figure out that their prot warrior can successfully begin the Hydross encounter by making use of Charge or Intervene.
It is an easy, and sadly all too common, trap to fall into to conclude that this strategy is then necessarily the easiest or the best way, and that it's reliance on the abilities of the tank they happened to use implies that only such a tank will work for the encounter.

I've heard a great many stories of guilds getting a disorienting wake-up call when, say, a prot paladin comes by and tanks hydross by simply popping an invisibility potion and walking up to him, no warrior abilities required.

I personally do not use intercept on hydross, I will pop a speed pot, invis pot, or even have an eye of kilrogg Misdirected while I run up and grab him. These pulls have less room for error in my experience. I Believe a prot paladin has a better use on this fight however, and that is aoe tank the adds, you say to work towards your strengths, if aoe tanking is a strength why use why stick another tank in your place when you could do a better job at it.


A common one I hear is that people use a warrior tank on Prince, and see him getting hit incredibly hard, and then unthinkingly project their experience of the warrior's damage in-flow onto the paladin's health pool and concluding that the encounter is beyond him, when, in fact, against that boss he is superior in damage mitigation to the warrior in every respect.

I agree, his thrash is nasty and the additional charges on holy shield make this fight easier.



When BC first came out, no one would believe we could tank Prince.
So we did.
And then it was we would never manage to tank Gruul.
So we did that too, both pre and post-nerf.
Then people reached SSC and TK.
And we showed how these two instances are a prot paladin's playground.

Now there are guilds who refuse to run Hyjal without their prot paladin, and in both Hyjal and Black Temple a paladin has progression main tanked every single boss the game mechanics physically permit us to, up to and including Illidan himself.

I was one of the doubter's at first, but my opinion has changed, and while I will always maintain pushing new content, A warrior is the better choice. A paladin has a place in all my 25 man raids, as well as a feral Druid.




Misunderstanding the prot paladin is quite forgivable.
In many ways we are still learning to understand ourselves.

This is one of the most insightful things I have read on these forums to date.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 03:39 PM
Just wanted to highlight these two points as major failings in the game as it stands right now, and I'd prolly add Magic-Immune to the first.

Any encounter which requires a specific Class (not Role) is a bad one, in my opinion. I'm quite sure that it would be near impossible for a Paladin to tank a progression Archimonde without FearWard/Tremor, which it would be significantly easier for a Warrior to.
I am not sure I agree about silencing effect's, they perform a function in encounters that are difficult to work around, thus making encounters more challenging without truly effecting necessary itemization requirements before the encounters can be tackled, just creative strategies

Fear ward becoming a class ability would fix fear issue's, and as priest racials are incredibly unbalanced as is I wouldn't be surprised to see a reworking.




I generally Try and keep him with a shaman for WoA, I beleive he always has an oil up, and we are working on Leaotheras in hopes of getting him the fang (we have been very unlucky with Bloodmaw drops, To be honest tanking drops in general.)

In TK it is an issue with trash being close together, but in SSC, where we have mainly had the issue (He tanks first kill here, and genereally doesnt in tk, due to some mobs that silence) I generally have him pull to the ramp, while other tanks/cc happen on the actual patforms so he ahs room for consecrate, however it could be possible that he is being extra careful, or the cc targets are not geting cc'ed in time.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 04:09 PM
Alot of players cry to be revised closer to warrior mechanics, given a Shield Wall by another name, have Holy Sheild increased to 75% block chance, etc.
That would be a step in the wrong direction, in my mind.

Just as shamans, druids, priests, and paladins all heal completely differently from each other, they are all effective healers.
And just as a healing core is stronger for having a diverse distribution of all the healing classes, so too does a tanking core become stronger for the availability of different options.

I tend to agree, Each of these healer's are effective as healers, while they can also outperform each other in certain situations, Tanking should be the same.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 06:24 PM
I have to say it truly is, I just read over your blog also. The problem is, all tanking classes generally want to be the "MT", There is a certain amount of Prestige, and the fact that in most cases the "MT" gets priority on loots doesn't help.

At this point in time, I do most of the management for my guild, I lead all progression Raids basically on my own, and do most of the leading on Farm content (other officers helping here because they are now familiar with the content) and I generally Tank the boss's, It would be good for me to have someone else be able to tank them, so I can focus more on who is doing what wrong/right etc., If my Prot paladin steps up to the plate, that would be wonderful.

Ceravantes
09-11-2007, 10:16 PM
WWS (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=lumiwic6pplic&s=5387-5832)

WWS of our VR kill tonight, wiped twice (I don't see how people can get hit by orbs, it looks/seems so easy, must be nice to just dps) The first attempt he did not have Wrath of air, the second two he did, however, i think it was the first that he died. All three fights, he had initial aggro

WWS (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=aa4kiybiqbdwo&s=6875-7464)

There is one from the week before, I don't believe he had wrath either tries there, and he also was not the initial puller. What I gather from this is it doesn't matter wether he is the initial puller? I did notice an increase in his original TPS, but over time it dropped off a bit, iirc he sat around 650-800 on ktm, I normally don't see any but my own, but being pink it stands out to m, I could be mistaken.


Also, he and I both talked a bit about how we can more effectively use him on pull's, and some of the threat issues were pointed out to me by him, Whe I originally posted here, I had a vague understanding of the mechanics behind paladin tanking, especially where they exceled,I did some reading on my own, and through these post's, said reading, andd conversation with the Paladin in question I believe i can help him to be more succesful on threat by adjusting positioning etc, and some group composition.

All in all, this has been a very interesting and informative thread, I hope for others as well as me. I look forward to more just like it.


Edit: Also, this kill we had only 3 tanks, the kill before we had 4.

Mazrael
09-13-2007, 12:14 PM
VR is easily done with three tanks provided you keep all three topped off... My guild has always done it with three tanks. There was an 'OMG' moment last night when I had pots on cooldown (Chugged a Mana) and was down to my last 'stone, because I wasn't getting heals and he aggroed to me. Healers with thumbs up their asses is never fun.

Many cutting edge guilds don't have an issue getting a Warrior into their guild. Guilds that are just raiding to raid and see content, even competent ones like my own (Solarian and Al'ar in the same week, pretty much have Leotheras and Karathress solid) on an RP server... have issues finding enough tanks.

In fact, the only reason another Paladin and I (after personally going 18/43/0 for months) were allowed to tank was a dearth of Warrior and Feral Tanks at the time. One of Tanks vanished and the other quit in a fit of drunken emo. So after a few flakes and some good healer recruits, I was allowed to ditch healing. Yay me.

Ceravantes
09-13-2007, 12:58 PM
We have done it with 3 many times, I was just pointing out that the dmg taken on the wws would show differently with 4 tanks than with 3. Just trying to point out that even with WoA and being the first to engage the paladin's threat still lagged behind mine and the druids, When he and I talked, he said he could get around 300 spell damage with an oil, so with wrath should have been around 400, now the shaman I had with him is known to fail at totems sometimes, but I know he had it on the pull, as the shaman followed him in a ways to drop it.

Igrado
11-08-2007, 10:59 AM
Last Updated : 2007-11-08 (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)

Changes:
Changes made to main guide.
Examples section added.

Satrina
11-08-2007, 11:48 AM
Somewhat off-topic, but I will definitely I'll agree with the sentiment about Bosskillers. For example, we run two tanks for Tidewalker: protection paladin on murlocs and some other tank on Wheelcrotch himself. We generally ignore Bosskillers now for the most part.

Igrado
12-21-2007, 09:33 AM
Last Updated : 2007-12-21 (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)
This version is accurate for WoW Version 2.3.0

toxiccrayons
01-01-2008, 03:17 AM
I am a bit frustrated and have a couple problems I am either too close to to understand or have missed the mark completely. Initially I thought as a paladin my main problem would be survivability. I had a warrior tank pre BC but I quickly dropped her finding I hated tanking five mans BC and didnít have the heart to get her ready for raids via the instance grinding I would need. Many months later I rolled a paladin because the new guild I joined needed tanks, as did the server, as is the same story in most situations. It was great. As soon as my gear leveled into the instance (whichever I was tanking) I held agro and could move at such a pace that instance grinding was a pleasure. A little while later I got into karazhan and heroics, which is where I am at now. Iíve pulled my gear together with the priority list being defense then absorption (having high HP), then avoidance. Uncrushable pre-kara/heroic was possible only if I sacrificed a lot of stamina. Hence the idea that survivability would be an issue and the current accumulation of gear was my answer.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Quickslinger

If the link doesnít work looking up quickslinger on zuljin would get you to her.

The idea was to be able to take as much damage as possible so multiple mob tanking (in five man heroics) was also possible but almost no one wants to try it. My guild previously was main tanked by a warrior ( a very good one) and is very uncomfortable not using CC on all mobs but the tank target. They trust his previous example through almost anything because it was such a good one. However, what I find happens is I can front load damage on that single target but my mana is too low by the time we cycle through the other mobs to tank them as effectively so my threat wanes considerably but the group doesnít expect thisÖso I lose agro. Iíve tried compensating with judgment of wisdom at the top of the fight but my threat generation suffers for it on trash. I also use mana oil rather than wizard oil for the same reason. Avengerís shield and consecrate are also often removed from the picture because of CC. Weíre a rogue/hunter heavy guild so our main CC is traps and saps. This leaves judgment of righteousness or blood. I use righteousness in order to make things more bearable on my healer but again mana suffers along with threat. In the end I am beginning to feel very uncertain of my paladin and unable to focus on a solution. Itís mostly been suggested I need either spell or mele hit rating in order to hold more agro. I donít dismiss this off the cuff but it doesnít seem like the major problem to me (though I definitely could use more). It seems more a problem of a paladin tank forced into a warrior tanks shoes and perhaps my own timidity where defying the previous example is concerned. Either way any advice on how to better control mobs, ability rotation, or gear break down would be much appreciated.

Ceravantes
01-01-2008, 06:07 AM
Armory messed up so I can't look at your gear, but you could try rethinking positioning to ensure you could use consecrate if that would help. The best solution would be to do what you feel comfortable with, noit the other members of your raid. If you feel conficdent that you can tank multiple mobs then do it.

The problem here is they are playing a paladin to a warriors strengths and throwing yours out the window.

Thelnar
01-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Hello, Thelnar here from doohammer EU got a small question about avoidancy and what to go for considering my gear, having played a prot warrior pre tbc going from mc up to entering nax and clear some in there before tbc i didnt feel like continuing on the warrior and tanking so i rerolled paladin to se the game in annother perspective, and now after raiding threw all the 25 man content and waiting for sunwell I've been collecting tanking gear since the diffrent experiences I have gotten from doing heroics and sutch been somewhat possitive (and more in line what i felt that i was missing when playing as a warrior tank). armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Doomhammer&n=Thelnar)
as you can se its abit of karazhan to black temple gear, im hoping in general to grab more from BT/hyhjal as we clear it more, but my question is compareable to warriors where u need to reach some 30% block rating do we need that mutch? since ive in general stacked up dodge as a migitation stat due to 30% block of HS and then having redoubt being 30% when it proccs so it almost feels like i dont really need it, also parry being costly in generlal per rating point is it usefull for a pally?

im not mutch for a good searcher in forums so hope you dont get angry at me posting these questions here if there is a thread about it but its just that most threads go more for the warrior aproach and we paladins get kinda ditched in the sea so to say ;), anyways happy for any responce /salute



Edit: respeccing holy for the raid but my general tanking stats are 16k armor 22.3% dodge 17% parry 13%block 486 deff 430 spelldmg and aprox 14.5k hp unbuffed when prot specced

Aesir
01-03-2008, 12:40 PM
All 3 tanking classes have their uses..it just depends on their individual strengths and weaknesses.

Paladins are just facing more scrutiny because their strengths weren't really brought into the forefront until guilds reached SSC/TK.

Right when BC came out, there was resistance to Bear Tanks, because everyone was used to Warrior tanks. The benefit our Fuzzy Friends had was their gear scaling in the pre-kara blues and epics. When most guilds started Kara, Bears looked vastly superior to Warriors due to their almost reaching armor cap and increased stamina over most Warriors.

As guilds completed Kara, the disparity was much smaller, but Bears had already been accepted. Paladins seemed to be at a big disadvantage compared to Warriors due to the HP difference and there wasn't a whole lot of multimob tanking in Kara.

If you talk to a raid leader in a Kara guild, they will probably either know nothing of Paladin tanks or not like them. Sometimes both. You talk to a raid leader completing SSC/TK and 99% of the time they will love their Pally tank.


Blizzard just made it more of an uphill battle for Paladin tanks to gain respect.

Ceravantes
01-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Hello, Thelnar here from doohammer EU got a small question about avoidancy and what to go for considering my gear, having played a prot warrior pre tbc going from mc up to entering nax and clear some in there before tbc i didnt feel like continuing on the warrior and tanking so i rerolled paladin to se the game in annother perspective, and now after raiding threw all the 25 man content and waiting for sunwell I've been collecting tanking gear since the diffrent experiences I have gotten from doing heroics and sutch been somewhat possitive (and more in line what i felt that i was missing when playing as a warrior tank). armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Doomhammer&n=Thelnar)
as you can se its abit of karazhan to black temple gear, im hoping in general to grab more from BT/hyhjal as we clear it more, but my question is compareable to warriors where u need to reach some 30% block rating do we need that mutch? since ive in general stacked up dodge as a migitation stat due to 30% block of HS and then having redoubt being 30% when it proccs so it almost feels like i dont really need it, also parry being costly in generlal per rating point is it usefull for a pally?

im not mutch for a good searcher in forums so hope you dont get angry at me posting these questions here if there is a thread about it but its just that most threads go more for the warrior aproach and we paladins get kinda ditched in the sea so to say ;), anyways happy for any responce /salute



Edit: respeccing holy for the raid but my general tanking stats are 16k armor 22.3% dodge 17% parry 13%block 486 deff 430 spelldmg and aprox 14.5k hp unbuffed when prot specced


There is no nececssity for 30% block for any class, you need tor each 102.5% avoidance/bllock to be uncrushable, more difficult for a paladin as HS is 30% not a warriros 75% SB, This is where block comes in so handy, it is a very cheap stat when talking about itemization points.

Thelnar
01-04-2008, 07:26 AM
so in general i can jus stack up avoidancy around 60% and then fill up with block so that i got 103%ish? i was calculating abit and came up to that i had 93% block/avoidance atm but as im lacking major tanking items atm (due to raiding as a healer atm) I shouldnt really have a problem maxing it out within a short time thou. the though of high avoidance is just that since as a paladin you start out with a maxed manapool its not that big of issue untill later on in general + i feel in general if i am to tank bosses wouldnt it be better to avoid all incoming attacks that isnt a block passivly? unless he beats out the HS i shouldnt be tutched in general by a normal hit?

Ceravantes
01-04-2008, 02:14 PM
so in general i can jus stack up avoidancy around 60% and then fill up with block so that i got 103%ish? i was calculating abit and came up to that i had 93% block/avoidance atm but as im lacking major tanking items atm (due to raiding as a healer atm) I shouldnt really have a problem maxing it out within a short time thou. the though of high avoidance is just that since as a paladin you start out with a maxed manapool its not that big of issue untill later on in general + i feel in general if i am to tank bosses wouldnt it be better to avoid all incoming attacks that isnt a block passivly? unless he beats out the HS i shouldnt be tutched in general by a normal hit?

You run into somewhat similar situations as a warrior in regards to to much avoidance, you will run low on mana because you will take less damage and not be gaining mana from heals, and a good deal of your threat is from blocking, so you want to take hits. When gearing for uncrushable it is really irrelevant which stat you stack so long as you reach it as the spike damage is just to great otherwise.

Thelnar
01-05-2008, 10:19 AM
so in general i need more space in the bags for spare gear with other type of stats for diff encounters :q whey -.- ;)

Ceravantes
01-05-2008, 02:57 PM
That is true of all tanks imo, I would say there is less room for paladins to do that though.

Midnite Cruiser
02-06-2008, 12:00 PM
As a raiding prot warrior, I was told early and often that paladin tanks were for trash mobs, and warriors and feral druids were boss tanks. I must admit that the game design bears this out somewhat, with abilities like Shield Wall and Last Stand, and a druid's high health and armor, compared to the paladin's extra charges on shield blocks to withstand constant trash mob battering. But I also know that Blizzard has always been abysmal at class balancing, and that player skill can overcome many encounters that are deemed near impossible from a design standpoint. Certain encounters are skewed toward certain types of tanks, and this is as it should be to keep everyone viable. No one wants to see their character made useless after a certain point by narrow minded content design. By the same token, any encounter that rigidly requires a specific class and spec is poorly designed. WoW players should be free to think outside the box and experiment with different raid compositions to see what works best for their group composition and gear.

However, after working with a few excellent paladin tanks, I have a newfound respect for the class. Warriors and druids often dismiss paladin tanks as needing no skill to play, because they appear to simply spam one power to effortlessly hold aggro on huge mobs. They regain mana every time they get healed? Why can't we do that with rage? For that matter, why can't we sit on 10 rage points instead of having to start every fight with an empty tank? And what's this about their shield block having eight charges while ours has only two? And a long distance Taunt? This class is grossly unfair! The list of perceived injustices goes on and on.

But the fact of the matter is that paladin tanks have had to struggle with awful itemization, cobbling together gear sets with warrior gear that often had the wrong stats for them. They were saddled with lower health, and they had to choose talents very carefully and use a precise rotation to optimize their threat generation, just like any other tanking class. Luckily, patches and badge gear have begun to address these issues, but the bias that paladins make inferior tanks remains. I still use Bosskillers to study up on every boss simply to learn the nuances of the fight, but I have noticed that this and many other guides are skewed almost exclusively toward warrior tanks and strategies built around them. In all fairness, this could be because some of the guides are old and were created at a time when paladin main tanks were less viable, but even so, there is no excuse not to update those guides to reflect tactics made possible by recent patches.

In any case, I have no ego whatsoever as a main tank and am all about whatever gets the job done best. I have found paladin tanks to be markedly superior in some situations, both as main tanks and offtanks. One reason why warriors and druids are frequently MTs while paladins are OTs is simply because the former classes starve out of rage and find themselves unable to effectively generate threat in an offtanking role, whereas paladins excel as OTs even when they are not taking steady damage. But anyone who has ever seen a paladin trash mob tank in action in Hyjal (or even Shattered Halls), or main tanking Prince or Tidewalker, is unlikely to ever question the validity of the class again. In short, I love working with paladin tanks, and feral druids, too. They each bring tremendous versatility to any raid if everyone is willing to put their bias aside and pull together as a team. And that, I suppose, is the real joy of endgame raiding. :-)

- Larsson, Antonidas

Igrado
05-07-2008, 08:11 AM
I looked over the 2.4 patch notes and did not notice anything that might have needed to be reflected in the guide; however, if there are changes that affect it, by all means point them out, preferably on Maintankadin, (http://failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=1839)and we will update the guide accordingly.

Igrado
10-02-2008, 08:56 AM
Status: This Guide will be considered obsolete upon release of Wrath of the Lich King (2008-11-13).

For any further discussion, please visit the MainTankadin Forums (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=1936)