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Meeks
08-27-2007, 07:40 AM
This is the 4th edition of my guide with updates from the latest patch. Some of the sections are not 100% finished but I had enough ready that I felt it warranted being released. If you see errors please post and I will fix them. They might even be fixed already on my internal version.



1: Talents
2: Hit Rating vs. STR/Crit: Why to never gem for hit
-Weapon Expertise
-Armor Penetration
3: Attack Table: Why hitting more does not mean you crit more
4: Heroic Strike vs. Cleave
5: Slow or Fast Offhand?
6: Skill Rotation
-Should hamstring be a part of my skill rotation?
-Threat
7: PvP
8: Execute Range
9: Weapon Enchants
10: Haste
11: Gear
12: Gemming



1: Talents:

This is one of the main areas that changed from the last patch. There were several changes made to the fury tree that changed the build slightly. The points in arms are unchanged. You are still building towards impale. For fury there was debate about what to do. I have tried out some of the choices and have decided to drop improved execute and pick up weapon mastery. I know my current armory spec is different but that is because I was testing things and have not returned to my intended spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czhbZVV0VxxRVuqo)

There are several reasons that I gave up improved execute. For one when execute range hits I pop out my fast mainhand for two fast weapons and I am confidant I can use execute at the same rate as I did when it was not improved. They will do a little less damage each time...105 pre mitigated...to be exact but the most important part is that you are able to use execute. On top of that I am on the verge of getting two piece tier 6 which will cover most of the loss.

Now a lot of my reasons are covered because of the level of my gear. If you are in a situation where improved execute is the only way you will have enough rage to execute consistently then that would change things. It becomes a matter of how often you are missing executes and many other factors. I did not test any of this myself because it is not an issue for me but my guess would be that if you are just starting fury and need the talnent to make execute feasible the best place to take the points from will be improved dual wield.



2: Hit Rating vs. STR/Crit:

Here I will provide a basic overview and provide some links to places where people can look at math to their heart's content.

Hit Rating: 15.8 rating grants 1% hit chance
Critical Strike Rating: 22.1 rating grants 1% critical strike chance

These following statements are assuming your target is a raid boss. If a mob/player is your level the miss rate is 5% for yellow and 24% for white attacks.

While dual wielding your white attacks will have a 28%(rounded up) chance to miss. Your yellow attacks still have a 9%(rounded up) chance to miss. This means that if you have precision you will want to stack hit until you reach 95 hit rating which will mean you will not miss a yellow attack.

With the introduction of hit and crit ratings item budgets now work so that 1 str = 1 agility = 1 crit rating = 1 hit rating and so on and so forth. That leaves warriors with the question of which stats to stack. Until you reach 95 hit rating take hit over everything else. After this point hit is now your least effective dps stat. It is very important to realize that it is still a very important stat and simply ignoring it can be disastrous. The point of bringing this up is that a lot of warrior have stacking hit at the cost of everything else, something that used to be an effective gearing method. This is no longer the case and pure hit stacking should be avoided.

The way item budgets work is that the more of one stat you have the less total budgets the items gets. This means that items that have a variety of stats will have more overall stats allocated. Items with hit/crit/str together are generally better items then just str/crit. Find gear with balanced stats when you can and use this to keep your hit rating high. Then gem for str/crit in these items.

It is also important to note that the lower your level of gear the more effective str is. If you are just starting to gear up STR is by far your best stat. As your gear improves the value of crit will rise and at certain levels of raid buffs even marginally pass str. This means that for very low levels of gear stick to +8 str but as you improve you can phase in 4str/4crit gems to finish socket bonuses.

The reason that hit is less valued is that strength and crit affect every single one of your attacks while hit rating only effects white damage. All three of the stats are closely related though and as any of the values change the relative worth of the other two change also.

A good place to go to in order to find the relative value of each stat for your current level of gear is:
[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17022-warrior_dps_spreadsheet_2_3_beyond/)

Current File:
Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond (http://elitistjerks.com/552415-post256.html)

I have not checked on either of these myself so use at your own risk.

The spreadsheet is not meant to be an absolute guide. In fact I have never actually plugged my gear into the spreadsheet myself because it is currently flawed. I link this post because there is very good discussion throughout and it is an incredible resource for posting specific item questions and getting reasonable answers. Even when working the spreadsheet is no more then a rough guide. Use it with caution.

Here you can enter your gear and get a rough value of how useful a single point of str, hit, and crit is for you right now.

For the love of all that is good on this earth I am not advocating staying at 100 hit and never increasing it from there. All I am saying is to stop stacking it ahead of str/crit. Hit is still a very good stat and one you will need. Just use it in moderation.


Weapon Expertise:

Replacing probably the most confusing dps stat ever Weapon Expertise is now on every piece of gear that used to have Weapon Skill. What weapon expertise does is lower an enemies chance to dodge and parry by .25% each per point of expertise. For dps this means is that expertise is weighted identically to hit on gear(they are both 3.9 rating per point in hit/expertise). However reducing a mobs chance to dodge your attacks benefits white damage AND yellow damage. This is a huge difference. Unfortunately there is no plate dps gear currently out there that has expertise. There are a couple leather pieces that might be worth picking up depending on what you are using and if you can pry them away from rogues. Also humans and orcs get expertise for specific weapons from their racial talents.


Armor Penetration:

Short story: Armor penetration is good!

Long story: Most of the hard data is going to come from a thread at the Elitist Jerks forums. I will post the full thread here for you to browse at your leisure then I will repost the more pertinent data directly.

Boss armor values: [RAID] Boss armor values - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/)


Notice that all but 2 of the bosses have either 6200 or 7700 armor. A similar pattern occurs in the trash mobs: 5475/5700/5950 or 6800/7100/7400 for level 70/71/72 mobs. In terms of percentage reduction, these values result in either 34.15% or 39.15% armor reduction vs attackers of the same level as the mob.


Armor reduction of a level 73 boss attacked by a level 70 player is 37% for 6200 armor, and 42.17% for 7700 armor. Sunder Armor x5 is -2600 armor, Faerie Fire is -610, and Curse of Recklessness is -800.

For a boss with 6200/7700 armor, SA x5 gives a damage increase of 18.36%/16.61%.

If we assume now that the boss has SA stacked x5 on it, adding just FF gives a further 4.5%/4.05% increase, CoR gives 5.99%/5.38%, and with both on they give 11.06%/9.9% increase over just SA.

Armor Penetration is a bit more complex because it comes it varied amounts. If the boss has just SA x5 on it, then the effect of ArP is as follows:
100 ArP: 0.71%/0.64%
200 ArP: 1.43%/1.29%
300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%
400 ArP: 2.91%/2.62%
500 ArP: 3.66%/3.3%

For a fully debuffed boss (SA x5, FF, CoR) the increase from ArP is:
100 ArP: 0.79%/0.71%
200 ArP: 1.59%/1.42%
300 ArP: 2.41%/2.15%
400 ArP: 3.24%/2.89%
500 ArP: 4.08%/3.64%

As you can see the higher your armor penetration gets the more valuable each point of it becomes. It is an incredible stat in that it is the only one that scales with itself AND with other stats. Now I would be careful before making the plunge into armor penetration if you are not ready for it. It used to only be in BT/Hyjal making it impossible to stack it until you were ready for it. In the last patch with the new badge gear it is easier to collect before you can truly support it.

As mentioned it does not truly shine until you can get several pieces of it and it is not worth destroying your crit/hit to gear to get 2 pieces of it. That being said armor penetration is the future of dps stats so learn to love it.



3: Attack Tables:

One of the popular arguments for stacking hit is people tell you that the more you hit the more you crit. As much as that sounds like it makes sense it is not how the WoW combat system works. Wow uses an attack table. Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table)

The way the attack table works is that every time you swing there are a few things that can happen and they are prioritized in this order(assuming you are behind a mob so parry is not counted)

1) Miss
2) Dodge
3) Glance
4) Crit
5) Hit

Lets say you are duel wielding and have 0 hit and are attacking a raid boss from behind. Your attack table is going to look like this:



1-28 = Miss(28%)
29-37 = Dodge(9%)
38-62 = Glance(25%)

That leaves 37% open at the end of the table. This means you can have up to 37% crit before you are capped if you ahve 0 hit, 0 expertise, and 0 points in weapon expertise or percision. If you have less then 37% anything left at the end will be a plain hit. For example if you had 30% crit that would leave a 7% chance to get a plain hit.

Now no one is going to have 0 hit and you will most likely have talents such as percision adn weapon mastery which will raise the crit cap much higher. You have to try very hard and wear very unusal gear to hit the crit cap.

4: Heroic Strike vs. Cleave

Heroic strike and cleave are the two contenders for a rage dump for fury warriors. They both have bonus damage, they both are not on the global cooldown, and they both turn a white attack into a yellow attack. This means that an attack that would of had a 28% chance to miss, 25% to be a glancing blow, and only crit for 2x damage now becomes a yellow attack. It only has the base 8% miss, no glancing and 2.2 crit from impale. They both also have bonus threat.

In an effort to try to lower their threat people have been floating the idea of using cleave instead of heroic strike. This is a matter of confusion due to blizzard listing on heroic strike’s tool tip that it has bonus threat and not on cleave’s. However this far into the game you should know better then to believe something on Blizzard’s tooltips.

Heroic Strike - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Heroic_Strike)
Cleave - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cleave)

Heroic strike adds 176 damage for 196 threat. That is 1.1 threat per bonus damage.
Cleave adds 70 damage for 130 bonus threat. That is 1.8 threat per bonus damage.

Something worth noting however is that if cleave hit two targets the bonus threat is split between the two making it preferable threat wise if you have a second target to hit.

As Natural pointed out to me this is not the entire story.


For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows and reducing chance to miss" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200. This is a completely out of the ballpark example, I'll look at some WWS logs in a second.

This changes your calculation as follows:

Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat
Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat

Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat.

This means it becomes hard to tell exactly how much threat each one causes without calculating factors from all your gear. It would appear that the better your gear the more in favor of cleave it will be. That being said Heroic Strike is still the better choice as points in improved cleave are a waste of valuable talent points.



5: Slow or Fast Offhand?

Whirlwind now swings with both your weapons meaning there is a real benefit from having a slower weapon in your offhand. However WW is still not a huge part of your damage and the difference between a slow and fast offhand is not a big one. If you have a fast offhand with good stats I would not replace it with a slow weapon unless they are comparable. Be looking for a good slow weapon to offhand but do not commit yourself to one.

Slow weapons also waste less flurry procs. The common counter argument to this is that faster weapons proc flurry more. In fact it procs more flurry effects in an identical ratio to the amount of flurry procs it uses. This is true when all your attacks are white hits. However you also have to factor crits from yellow damage. These flurry procs have no relation to the speed of you weapons so the slower they are the more effective they are. Overall this is a pretty minimal effect but one worth mentioning as a benefit of a slow weapon. Also the higher your crit rate the smaller this effect is.

Also of note is the fact that is both your weapons are the same speed you can get 4 charges from flurry instead of 3. This works because when your weapons are in sync the game seems to be unable to determine which attack should land first so it ends up giving the haste to both weapons. If you weapons get out of sync while attacking, something that will happen occasionally, you will loose the benefit. If you can it is worth picking up two same speed weapons.


6: Skill Rotation:

The standard fury build has ½ improved whirlwind. This allows you to make a solid skill rotation with blood thirst and whirlwind.

Seconds into fight:
0: BT
1.5: WW
3: Global cool down free
6: BT
7.5: Global cool down free
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5: Global cool down free
15: Global cool down free
18: BT
19.5: WW

This allows you to use both abilities as they cool down. Also leaves some nice places to use a global cooldown on something else. Use these times to refresh a shout or rampage or possibly a hamstring.

Assuming threat is not a concern use heroic strike if you go over 50 rage.


Should hamstring be a part of my skill rotation?

Before the windfury nerf hamstring used to be a vital part of your skill rotation because it could proc a windfury attack. Now that it no longer procs windfury it is less clear whether or not to use it. Hamstring can crit and proc flurry, and it can proc enchants and haste procs. Hamstring also has 181 bonus threat per use. In the end it is up to you. If you have the rage and you are good on threat feel free to use a global cool down on a hamstring. Generally speaking I will use heroic strike before I use hamstring. This is because they both have the same amount of bonus threat and I generally feel heroic strike will add more damage. This is really up to personal opinion though.


Threat:

Threat is no longer a concern on the majority of fights as long as you got your trust salv buff.


7: PvP: Arena:
No death wish or imp intercept in the tree anymore. GG. Stick to battlegrounds unless you do not care about your rating.


8. Execute Range

This is your time to shine and make up some spots on the damage meters. If you have decent fast weapons equip them now as they will give fast steady rage. If your rage spikes above 50 use a Blood thirst then go back to executes.

R.I.P. Death Wish

This is also the time to pop reck and go wild.


9: Weapon Enchants:

Blue 71 dps weapons: Potency x 2…at this level of gearing a crusader on main hand has been shown to be a decent main hand enchant. If it is cheaper then potency or you feel some nostalgia go for it.

Epic 80-91 dps weapons: Executioner main hand potency offhand.

Season 2 arena and SSC and beyond: Executioner main hand and mongoose or potency offhand.

Note on Executioner: Unless things have changed since the PTR this encahnt does not stack. That is why it is never recomended to enchant your offhand with it.


10: Haste

The haste nerf has been live for a while now and the dust has settled. Warriors and rogues alike lost damage but it is not as bad as I had feared. Dragonspine trophy is still a good trinket but it is no where near the godly state it once had. It is now eventually replaceable.

Dragonstike is still the best blacksmith weapon but not by as much, much smaller margin and BT weapons will surpass it, something that previously did not happen until Illidan legendaries.

For items with static haste: They are still good items but if you can find an equal level item for the same slot without haste that second item is probably going to be better.



11: Gear:

There is now a sight out there that has come a long way in terms of item evaluation. It is not 100% and it is probable that no site can ever be 100% for gear evaluation but it is currently the best out there. I monitor it now and then and send suggestions and the creater has been very good about adressing them.

The site is Maxdps.com

What makes the sight great is that it is easy to use and you put your current stats into sight and it revaluates every item based on your current stats. You can select what gear is available to you and search just those sections.

I strongly recomend this sight for getting an idea of how gear is rated for where you are right then.


12: Gemming:

The way I gem is pretty simple. If I do not want the socket bonus I gem 8 str...generally the only sockets bonuses I go for are +str or +crit ones.

If I do decide to pick up a socket bonus here is what I do:
Red: 8 str
Yellow: 4 str / 4 crit
Blue: 4 str / 6stam


Meta:

Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. It is fixed again and working fine and would be the only meta I would seriously consider for pure dps.

Dreadski
08-27-2007, 09:06 AM
Very informative guilde. The warrior forums a la WoW have been pushing to get 200+ hit rating, and so I geared for it. Now with this info things may change a bit. I have about 193 hit rating, never gemmed for it. But this will open things up for me to stack way more AP and crit in my gear set up and drop a bit of hit. Thanks for posting this, it was a really long time coming.

I do have one question after reading all the way through. If you have less white hit rating, what does it do to your rage? From what you say you don't seem to be rage starved...

Meeks
08-27-2007, 09:53 AM
Very informative guilde. The warrior forums a la WoW have been pushing to get 200+ hit rating, and so I geared for it. Now with this info things may change a bit. I have about 193 hit rating, never gemmed for it. But this will open things up for me to stack way more AP and crit in my gear set up and drop a bit of hit. Thanks for posting this, it was a really long time coming.

I do have one question after reading all the way through. If you have less white hit rating, what does it do to your rage? From what you say you don't seem to be rage starved...


I am threat capped may more often then i am rage capped. There are many times when i am sitting at 100 rage unable to heroic strike or I will pull.

However even when I am not threat capped i have more then enough rage generation to get by. Even with i droppde down to 170 hit for a while my rage was fine. Especially if you have a shaman in your group you do not need to think about rage.

Ciderhelm
08-27-2007, 02:28 PM
Meeks, moved and stuck. :) Edited thread title for brevity!

Mozman
08-27-2007, 05:31 PM
reposting from 1st page of your wow thread - if you have a view on it its the only one you missed I think ;)


nice ;)

I also get parry and TC in arms for off tanking, tho I've not had unbridled wrath since the change some time back and use 2/5 imp demo shout and 3/5 booming voice.

the 2/5 demo shout is enough according to the testing I've seen and I figure BV just goes that bit further in keeping it up on bosses as I'm not short on rage for UW..

Ciderhelm
08-27-2007, 07:19 PM
Meeks, two things.

First, do you mind if I merge posts and make some formatting edits? (nothing to content, just to fonts, sizes, spacing, etc., for the purpose of putting it to the frontpage)

Second, Imi brought up a good point yesterday regarding Fury. Switching in two 1.5 Sec weapons during Execute phase maximizes damage because you are able to execute on the global cooldown. If that's brought up in the guide and I missed it, apologies.

Thanks for posting!

Meeks
08-28-2007, 04:41 AM
Meeks, two things.

First, do you mind if I merge posts and make some formatting edits? (nothing to content, just to fonts, sizes, spacing, etc., for the purpose of putting it to the frontpage)

Second, Imi brought up a good point yesterday regarding Fury. Switching in two 1.5 Sec weapons during Execute phase maximizes damage because you are able to execute on the global cooldown. If that's brought up in the guide and I missed it, apologies.

Thanks for posting!

Not only do I not mind I encourage it. Will save me a lot of work.

As to fast weapons for execute range that would be covered in section 8 entitled "Execute Range" ;-)

Meeks
08-28-2007, 04:46 AM
reposting from 1st page of your wow thread - if you have a view on it its the only one you missed I think ;)


nice ;)

I also get parry and TC in arms for off tanking, tho I've not had unbridled wrath since the change some time back and use 2/5 imp demo shout and 3/5 booming voice.

the 2/5 demo shout is enough according to the testing I've seen and I figure BV just goes that bit further in keeping it up on bosses as I'm not short on rage for UW..


Unbridled wrath is pretty important to me as it is the main reason I am able to avoid rage problems while advocating such low hit. My guidl uses a second fury warrior who picks up the 2/5 improved demo though. If he were to not get it I would probably go 2/5 demo 3/5 wrath.

Meeks
08-29-2007, 06:26 AM
I reformatted slightly. Should be a little more readable.

Ciderhelm
08-29-2007, 06:27 AM
Meeks,

This was brought up in a topic that was unrelated on the WoW-US forums, but I put forth a conjecture which I believe is accurate.

As a player moves to Tier 6 gear with Armor Ignore, Demoralizing Shout becomes a more powerful talent than Unbridled Wrath; this is because 5/5 Demoralizing Shout allows Curse of Recklessness to be placed on many mobs, which reduces their Armor. Since the potency of Armor Ignore becomes considerably stronger with lower Armor, damage with Tier 6 DPS gear gains a stronger benefit from talented Demoralizing Shout than Unbridled Wrath.

Just throwing that out there. Apologies if it's a bit confusing.

Meeks
08-29-2007, 06:45 AM
This is true. For my guild that duty will probably fall onto one of the tanks though we still got a few weeks till we get to BT so we have not decided who will be speccing yet. We also currently raid with only 1 warlock and despite active recruiting have not found a competent one in almost two months. If that continues as we enter BT then that curse is probably going to continue to be shadow for us.

If you are in a guild and it turns out you are the only person going that deep in fury I would spec it. What is good for the raid is good for you.

Dreadski
08-29-2007, 12:26 PM
That's an excellent observation with the CoR + 5/5 Demo acting in unison with the T6 grade gear....Phat DPS Holocaust.

Cryinfreeman
08-30-2007, 02:06 AM
Well, i feel i have to reply to this post. I actually learned about this post when someone mentioned it in the EU-forums. Anyway, to our point now.

First of all is hit. What you say here about hit is totally wrong and incorrect. Hit is not the worst stat past 95+precision. To put it this way, i dare any warrior with 95 hit+precision to make a couple of raids and post here his dmg meters so we can see his position. I'm 101% sure that he will do pretty bad. Hit is always one of the most important stats. But let's take a look on how hit/ap/crit affect the rage regen when attacking.

Hit: Hit means less misses which means more successful normal attacks which by it's turn means more steady dps and therefore a steady rage regen. Adding hit will decrease your chance to starve for rage so you won't have to queue any special attack. Also, more successful attacks mean more rage which means by it's turn, more special attacks. So, in the end, hit increases your yellow dmg too indirectly. It is important to note that when you have 24% miss chance for example and you dual wield, both your MH and your OH have a 24% each and not a 24% miss chance overally.

Crit: Crit is the burst dmg. It was and it will always be a very good stat for dps. However, due to the nature of the attack tables and the way that attacks behave, you may have crit streaks but you may not as well. You can have miss streaks instead which means no rage at all.

AP: Ap is the middle way between crit and hit. It offers steady dps increase but only when you land your attacks. So, we can see that ap is indirectly connected with hit and miss chances.

Concluding, hit is way much more important than you think it is. See it this way. You fight against a boss and the boss reaches the execute range. You perform the first execute leaving you with no rage. A miss streak follows leaving you again with no rage. When you finally get some rage to execute, you already lost some dmg because you queued your special attacks. Imagine this to happen like 2-3 times when you are in execute range. The dmg loss is huge. All in all? Don't give wrong information that can lead ppl to wrong decisions. HIT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT STATS.It's not a coincidence that every end game raider has at least 240 hit ( rogues usually 260+).

About the slow/fast OH. Well, a slow OH as you mentioned scales better with haste and indeed this is true. BUT, a fast OH doesn't consume more flurry charges in the end. It's simple, a fast OH will consume more flurry charges but it will also produce more in the same time comparing to a slow OH. So, this kinda balances the difference.

Haste: Haste doesn't affect all kinds of procs. Weapon procs are usually PPM procs like crusader/mongoose etc. These kind of procs remain unaffected by haste. No matter if you attack every 3.8 sec or 1 sec, mongoose will proc 1 time per minute on average. Haste your overall dps but not the weapon procs.

Meeks
08-30-2007, 05:14 AM
Well, i feel i have to reply to this post. I actually learned about this post when someone mentioned it in the EU-forums. Anyway, to our point now.

First of all is hit. What you say here about hit is totally wrong and incorrect. Hit is not the worst stat past 95+precision. To put it this way, i dare any warrior with 95 hit+precision to make a couple of raids and post here his dmg meters so we can see his position. I'm 101% sure that he will do pretty bad. Hit is always one of the most important stats. But let's take a look on how hit/ap/crit affect the rage regen when attacking.

Hit: Hit means less misses which means more successful normal attacks which by it's turn means more steady dps and therefore a steady rage regen. Adding hit will decrease your chance to starve for rage so you won't have to queue any special attack. Also, more successful attacks mean more rage which means by it's turn, more special attacks. So, in the end, hit increases your yellow dmg too indirectly. It is important to note that when you have 24% miss chance for example and you dual wield, both your MH and your OH have a 24% each and not a 24% miss chance overally.

Crit: Crit is the burst dmg. It was and it will always be a very good stat for dps. However, due to the nature of the attack tables and the way that attacks behave, you may have crit streaks but you may not as well. You can have miss streaks instead which means no rage at all.

AP: Ap is the middle way between crit and hit. It offers steady dps increase but only when you land your attacks. So, we can see that ap is indirectly connected with hit and miss chances.

Concluding, hit is way much more important than you think it is. See it this way. You fight against a boss and the boss reaches the execute range. You perform the first execute leaving you with no rage. A miss streak follows leaving you again with no rage. When you finally get some rage to execute, you already lost some dmg because you queued your special attacks. Imagine this to happen like 2-3 times when you are in execute range. The dmg loss is huge. All in all? Don't give wrong information that can lead ppl to wrong decisions. HIT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT STATS.It's not a coincidence that every end game raider has at least 240 hit ( rogues usually 260+).

About the slow/fast OH. Well, a slow OH as you mentioned scales better with haste and indeed this is true. BUT, a fast OH doesn't consume more flurry charges in the end. It's simple, a fast OH will consume more flurry charges but it will also produce more in the same time comparing to a slow OH. So, this kinda balances the difference.

Haste: Haste doesn't affect all kinds of procs. Weapon procs are usually PPM procs like crusader/mongoose etc. These kind of procs remain unaffected by haste. No matter if you attack every 3.8 sec or 1 sec, mongoose will proc 1 time per minute on average. Haste your overall dps but not the weapon procs.

Hit is a very important stat. In fact it is your 3rd most important stat, right after str/crit. Please read the guide closely. I mention in several places that stopping at 100 is bad. The best way to gear is to find a balance between the 3 that weighs str and crit as slightly more important.

Also. Unless you have some logs to post it has be shwon to me several times that haste procs increase your proc rate for PPM devices. Say you have a 1 ppm enchant. With a 2.5 speed weapon your enchant now has about a 4% proc rate. Then say a haste mod procs doubling your attack speed. You will have a 4% proc rate still but will be attacking twice as fast.

I have not run those logs myself but they have been shown to me and my general feel my enchants backs it up. If you can get a log in here I will be happy to look at it.

I also can not speak for static haste as I do not ahve items with it. That might act differently.

As to fast off hand. If 100% of your damage is white then speed of weaposn will have no effect on flurry. However flurry also procs from special attacks. Special attacks such as Bloodthirst and Whirlwind have a static cooldown idependant of weapon speed. If you crit a special attack a fast off hand will procede to eat up the charges quickly but provides no increase to the ammount of these procs. That is what I mean by wasted flurry charges.

TheZ
08-30-2007, 06:17 AM
If you have 35% crit raid buffed what makes you think that your OH is not going to crit and generate more flurry charges. In both your posts you make it apear as if you think that your OH can not crit, where in fact it does crit. As most people know that have been raiding for a long time your OH has a slightly higher miss rate than your MH, This is where +Hit shines expecialy with a faster OH 2.0 to 1.6 speed range. If your OH is missing when you have 35% crit that there is a major loss in flurry charge generation alone. Overall a faster OH should* be used because it will provide a more fluid rage generation than a slower hitting offhand, the reason for this is that slower hitting weapons have higher 'burst' damage where it can crit huge then hit low, this equals unreliable rage generation which can lead to wasted rage through your swing cycle.

As you can see I also disagree with your theory behind the importance of +hit, In the end it has many more affecting factors than you have taken account for.

With low hit these are obvious problems:
- More wasted flury charges (Increases your attack speed by 25% for your next 3 swings after dealing a melee critical strike.) Misses DO EAT up Flurry charges
- Unsteady steady rage generation
- Less OH Crits to proc Flurry
- Less Weapon Procs (Mongoose & Windfurry)
- With less crits = less impale and DW damage contribution
- Less OH crits equate into wasted talent points in Imp OH damage (+25%)
- Execute range is much less deadly, Imp Execute becomes a somewhat wasted talent with crap rage generation

My best advise to any Serious fury warriors is to keep your stats balanced but keep hit as a high priority, the 240-250 range is a good place to aim for.

Meeks
08-30-2007, 06:21 AM
If you have 35% crit raid buffed what makes you think that your OH is not going to crit and generate more flurry charges. In both your posts you make it apear as if you think that your OH can not crit, where in fact it does crit. As most people know that have been raiding for a long time your OH has a slightly higher miss rate than your MH, This is where +Hit shines expecialy with a faster OH 2.0 to 1.6 speed range. If your OH is missing when you have 35% crit that there is a major loss in flurry charge generation alone. Overall a faster OH should* be used because it will provide a more fluid rage generation than a slower hitting offhand, the reason for this is that slower hitting weapons have higher 'burst' damage where it can crit huge then hit low, this equals unreliable rage generation which can lead to wasted rage through your swing cycle.

As you can see I also disagree with your theory behind the importance of +hit, In the end it has many more affecting factors than you have taken account for.

With low hit these are obvious problems:
- More wasted flury charges (Increases your attack speed by 25% for your next 3 swings after dealing a melee critical strike.) Misses DO EAT up Flurry charges
- Unsteady steady rage generation
- Less OH Crits to proc Flurry
- Less Weapon Procs (Mongoose & Windfurry)
- With less crits = less impale and DW damage contribution
- Less OH crits equate into wasted talent points in Imp OH damage (+25%)
- Execute range is much less deadly, Imp Execute becomes a somewhat wasted talent with crap rage generation

My best advise to any Serious fury warriors is to keep your stats balanced but keep hit as a high priority, the 240-250 range is a good place to aim for.

There is no nice way to say this. You have neither read the guide or you have and are not capable of comprehending it.

-Unsteady rage generation: can't really argue that
-Less OH Crits to proc Flurry: Learn to read a combat table
-With less crits = less impale and DW damage contribution: Learn to read a combat table
- Less OH crits equate into wasted talent points in Imp OH damage (+25%): Again Learn to read a combat table
- Execute range is much less deadly, Imp Execute becomes a somewhat wasted talent with crap rage generation: See section entitled: Execute Range

As to your statements about flurry read the post above your reply.

As to fast off hand. If 100% of your damage is white then speed of weapons will have no effect on flurry. However flurry also procs from special attacks. Special attacks such as Bloodthirst and Whirlwind have a static cooldown idependant of weapon speed. If you crit a special attack a fast off hand will procede to eat up the charges quickly but provides no increase to the ammount of these procs. That is what I mean by wasted flurry charges.

I realize that a fast offhand will crit more and create more flurries in a directly equal proportion to its speed. This means that if all you are doing is autoattacking then weapon speed has 0 effect. However for flurry procs that originate from a special attack you get the most benefit from slow weapons. This is not a huge effect but it is present and is the reason to take a slower off hand when presented with two otherwise equal weapons.

If a fast offhand has better stats and damage I will take it. However all else being equal the slower one will outpreform the faster one.

Cryinfreeman
08-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Ok, to begin with haste and procs. The formula for the PPM is this:

Procs per hit = Weapon speed * Procs per minute / 60
or else

Procs per minute = Procs per hit * 60 / Weapon speed.

Procs per minute is stable. What is modified by attack speed is the procs per hit.

Take a 2.7 weapon with mongoose. Mongoose is 1 PPM so we have:

1 = PPH*60/2.7 => PPH = 0.045 meaning you have 4.5% chance in each landed attack for mongoose to proc.

Now let's say that our weapon got hasted by 25% flurry. The new speed will be 2.7/1.25=2.16 speed.

New PPH will be: PPH= 1*2.16/60=0.036 which means that mongoose has a 3.6% chance in each landed attack to proc.

What i'm saying here is that PPM always remains the same. Haste has no effect on the rate of the procs.


About the fast/slow OH. A slow OH with the same stats will not outperform a fast one. You can proc flurry from special attacks. However, the OH doesn't really affect anything. By the time that a slow OH will attack 3 times, the fast one will attack 4 for example( depending on the speed difference) and this 4th attack can proc flurry again. It's not wise to say that a slow OH is better than a fast one when we talk about haste in any aspect.

Finally, about hit. I insist that hit is one of the most important stats you can get. Besides, hit is the only stat that can't be buffed while ap and crit can get a huge boost through raid buffs. Hit is the worst of the three only when you get to a point that you have enough hit to ensure a normal rage regen.

As you mentioned, and i agree 100% with you is that there must be a balance between the stats. It's basically a trade off when you come to choose. You take what will benefit you more. 10 hit rating will give less dps than 300 ap as 5 crit rating would give less dps than 15 hit.

Alchamire
09-06-2007, 07:28 AM
This is a good guide and worth reading Meeks, but I do have to agree with TheZ and Cryinfreeman about the hit. While DWing with low hit my DPS went down in all categories. My guild uses Wow Web Stats (http://www.lossendil.com) for our raids and we pay close attention to the after math. On older raids when I was still DW Fury 50% + of my damage came from my basic Melee Attacks. The rest of it came from my specials. Another example would be our rogues that both have 280-300 hit rating (19-20% hit) and their white damage veries from about 55-70% of their total damage done.

In conclusion, if I were specced for DWing I would stack +hit. White damage alone will always be superior to your specials.

fastidius
09-06-2007, 07:58 PM
Perhaps im just too low in the numbers as a pre Kara dps warrior but im pulling out 380 DPS with +6 crit gems and only 345Dps with +8 Hit dawnstones.

My crit trating is around the 25% area with agi pots etc its normally 28% in 5 man's. Running Mech Heroics it is consistently worse off for me to have Hit Gems....

Strength gems make me consistently around the 375 mark at this moment.

My guess on this is that until you hit the 30-32% crit mark that you would find hit less valuable than crit. I have been working this out over a period of time so i have 4 parses of Mech with each setup and its pretty conclusive to me...

So until 30% crit id say its Crit>AP>Hit. Having said that my hit rating is already at 100ish from just gear setup. 9% hit opens up the combat able so you don't hit the crit cap.


Balance is only appropriate after 30% crit rate as thats when your consistently in flurry on raids....35% raid buffed is almost constant flurry even with 20% missrate on white damage.

My breakup is normally around 57% melee 43% Specials.

Ciderhelm
09-06-2007, 09:00 PM
b

Meeks
09-07-2007, 07:13 AM
This is a good guide and worth reading Meeks, but I do have to agree with TheZ and Cryinfreeman about the hit. While DWing with low hit my DPS went down in all categories. My guild uses Wow Web Stats (http://www.lossendil.com) for our raids and we pay close attention to the after math. On older raids when I was still DW Fury 50% + of my damage came from my basic Melee Attacks. The rest of it came from my specials. Another example would be our rogues that both have 280-300 hit rating (19-20% hit) and their white damage veries from about 55-70% of their total damage done.

In conclusion, if I were specced for DWing I would stack +hit. White damage alone will always be superior to your specials.


Warriors are not rogues.

Rogues get many bonuses for stacking hit:
1) Combat potency: more hits = more energy = more low threat damage
2) Poisons: more hits = more procs
3) Thier dual wield spec is +50% instead of our +25%
4) They do not have an ability that stacks abornally well with AP like Bloodthirst


More hit is always good, however, that does not mean it is your most important stat. Crit and str scale with every single one of your attacks...not half of them.

Daylanor
09-12-2007, 12:40 PM
You forget windfury is only affected by white attacks.
More hit% = more windfury totem procs

And getting 200 hit rating from pre kara gear is very easy. It's only when you start gearing up properly in 25mans that your hit % will take a dive. This is ok since the gains you get from the crit/ap upgrades are worth it.
But still you would be standing on 180+hit rating. So I do stand with Cryingfreeman on about how hit is very important and that you are downplaying it's importance in your guide way to much.

Morthengel
09-13-2007, 04:05 AM
as this is my first reply to a post in this site, first I would like to say that this is the most good looking, clean, and informative website I have ever seen.

And the guide is well written, well rounded, easy and to the point.

I full agree with Meeks on the hit rating. Currently I am sitting around 175 hit, 32.6%crit and 1.9k AP unbuffed, and with 17/44 I am enjoying the top 1-5 positions (depending on the fight, death, and # of beers) on dmg meters in the raids easily. As an indication of my guilds dps output, I can say that Fathom lord dies when there are 4:30+ minutes on his enrage timer.

I downloaded eitistjerks spreadsheet and made calculations, in each step decreasing hit% by 1.3 and increasing crit% by 1%. Dps continued to increase, at 6% hit it turned downwards and started to decrease.

Now, we all know these spreadsheets are not very accurate, if you have such low hit rating, for sure you will have rage gen issues, and your MH will miss which will cripple your dps.

I didn't dwell into the comparison of crit against AP, but there will be some diminishing returns with crit due to flurry uptime very slowly converging to zero, which is not a case for AP. So, AP is ultimately most important stat.

But 200+ hit rating definitely can not be a requirement fo a fury warrior. Because opposite to rogues, we dont get any specials or bonuses from hitting, but we get them from critting: impale+flurry+deep wounds+chance to reapply rampage, and I have a lot of rage I dont know what to do with.



(Heroic strike, shhh!! "shifty eyes")

fastidius
09-13-2007, 04:23 PM
deep wounds doesn't necessarily help if you keep refreshing it, It takes 3 seconds before it ticks and if its reapplied it doesn't tick at all....

I think that the additional hit rating just allows you to remove precision from your tree and add other talents without serious dps loss.

fastidius
09-13-2007, 04:25 PM
if you can generate enough rage to maintain your BT/WW.HS rotation then adding additional HS swings will increase your DPS more than hits due to crits/Flurry uptime. The down side is you may be threat capped and need to pause your BT/WW cycles

Meeks
09-14-2007, 06:46 AM
deep wounds doesn't necessarily help if you keep refreshing it, It takes 3 seconds before it ticks and if its reapplied it doesn't tick at all....

I think that the additional hit rating just allows you to remove precision from your tree and add other talents without serious dps loss.


The deep wounds points are to get impale. Plus even with constant refreshing I still get about 2-4% of my damage from deep wounds on a fight.

As to precision...there are no other places to put points to get a dps increase. Plus precision is a good talent and worth the three points.

Morthengel
09-18-2007, 10:41 PM
Applied what the guide says in the past few days. Currently sitting at 170hit, 1.9k unbuffed AP (without BS) and 33% crit, mainly T5 level gear.

With these stats, I am competing with our rogues, in fact only 2 of our rogues can outdps me, wit a small margin. I suppose this is a good result, sine we are not supposed to outdps them right? They are the dps baseline.

The other fury warrior, who has 245 hit, 28.5% crit and 1.7k AP doing 20% less dps than me.

Thanks for this guide,I am now a happy warrior :).

At the beginning of the fight it is becoming a bit slow if I get a string of misses or can't crit tho, till I get my first crit, to build some rage, get flurry and activate rampage. But I open with Abacus to smooth the slow start curve. Once I get a crit, I start dpsing like a madman. Flurry active most of the time, mongooses proc, deathwish, rampage, bloodlust brooch. If the tank is good or the fight is not agro sensitive (Mag, Karathress) I can just go nuts with heroic strike.

What I noticed in such fights is, the aim should be to stay at 40-60 rage range. The rage above 60 should be burnt down with hs, and minimum 40 should be kept in for the next use of BT/WW/rampage. Then it becomes very consistent.

Should also try to keep trinkets, DW, and recklessness on cooldown all the time, but of course also preventing unefficient use (not activate when the mob is about to die).

Alchamire
09-19-2007, 06:05 AM
Heres some things I've been pondering some time.

Crusader VS Mongoose

Crusader proc = Heals for a vary small amount, grants 60 Strength at level 70. 60 Strength = 120 AP for Warriors.

Mongoose proc = Increases attack speed by 2%, grants 120 Agility. 120 Agility at level 70 is about 3-4% crit. For a Rogue the 120 Agility = 120 AP.

From my experiences Mongoose procs ALOT more than Crusader. I've read alot of discussions about PPM for different enchants and agree strongly with some, and totally disagree with others. Using Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade with Mongoose in my offhand and The Planar Edge with Crusader in my main, the Mongoose seems to proc much more than Crusader. Whether its because of weapon speed or not, I am still unsure of.

What do you guys think? Mongoose VS Crusader, which one is really better for a level 70 level DW Fury Warrior? I can see going for Crusader if you already have good +Crit, but if you lack in crit Mongoose is an easy fix for it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Slow offhand VS Fast offhand

One thing that I've really been wondering about lately is how well does DW spec scale with Slow vs Fast offhands? Adding +25% to your offhand damage sounds good and all, but adding that damage for a weapon that has a top end damage of 200 and speed of 1.5 VS an offhand with a top end of 300 and a speed of 2.6. 200 + 25% = 250, while 300 + 25% = 375. In theory with the 1.5 speed weapon you can do 500 damage in 3 seconds, while with the slower 2.6 secs you'll only get in one hit of up to 375 in 3 seconds. What about when flurry procs though? Or any other speed item/trinket/buff/etc you have to speed up your attack? From my understanding the more your attack speed increases, the more the damage is normalized and decreases per hit. Wouldn't this make it better to have a slower offhand for when Flurry procs? 2.6 goes to 1.95, just slightly faster than the 1.5 offhand and hitting for more even though damage per hit scales down with haste? 1.5 becomes 1.125 when Flurry procs, but won't the damage scale down with the haste?

If my theory is correct, then that would mean that the only reason to take a fast offhand is in hopes of getting more hits in thus increase your chance for crits for Flurry and to proc enchants/weapon abilities. Who needs to worry about getting more hits in with their offhand for crits when its your mainhand specials that you need to have crit the most? With Impale I'm more worried about getting crits with my yellow damage in than with my offhand. Another good reason to have a slow offhand that I can think of is that if you crit with your offhand, you leave Deep Wounds. Who the heck wants to leave a Deep Wound up on a mob/boss during a mobile fight like Gruul that you can easily get 5-10% of your damage in from bleed affects while using a dagger with the top end damage of 200? Yeah, thats gonna leave one hell of a Deep Wound... (sarcasm). With a slow offhand you have more time between hits from your main to off and will be more likely to get better use out of your Deep Wounds. I know its not every body's goal to get alot of bleed damage in, but its just something to think about.

Everyone's feed back is much appreciated. I would like to hear alot of different thoughts on this. Thanks.

Smash
09-19-2007, 11:25 AM
I've been lurking around here for a few weeks. I stumbled across this guide on the warrior forums first, then I noticed it here.

For the longest time I was focusing on hit. Before I read this, I had 304 hit rating and ~ 1700 attack power in zerker. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, my attacks were hitting for a good amount and I would almost never miss..... that is of course till I stumbled on this guide.

Long story short I was stuborn for a long long time, but a few days after reading this thread I started taking all my +hit gems out and started stacking strength. Over the last few weeks I got a few upgrades (red belt of battle and the legs of solarian). I dropped my hit rating to a still high 211 and upped my attack power in zerker stance by 250.

I also learned a bunch from the attack rotation and speccing for raids.(right now I have 2/2 imp WW cause I wasn't paying attention and clicked once to much........sigh)

The difference is extremely noticeable and I just wanted to stop by and say thanks for putting the time in to make the guide.

Thanks!

Daylanor
09-19-2007, 07:15 PM
Alchamire:

DW spec ads 25% to the 50% dmg on the OH for a total dmg of 62,5% on the OH. (It's 25% off 50%, not on 100% :))

And you calculate on the dps of the weapon not the top end :). Though I see where your thoughts lie.

And this games does go with the averega on everything, you factored in top end...think about the low end. There the slow one would come ahead.

Always go for the average (which weapon dps is) and take it from there :).

Deep Wounds is refreshed with every crit, and since we don't get "a more powerfull spell is already on the target" messages when we crit with our off hand with a prior BT/MH crit I will assume that the MH is always used for reference for Deep Wounds.

Edit: And seriously Alchamire you have way to much hit for a 2h spec. 9% is the limit of usefulness, anything above is totally wasted.

Kawfek
09-20-2007, 01:13 AM
Meeks,

I love the guide...it has set some of my guildies on thier but when a blue gear DW warrior sits 8-11th in SSC on dmg charts (8th for trash 10-11th boss). But I want to be near the rouges in the top 5. I have looked at the gear list from the Bliz site and wondered, like you said, are the best rated pieces the best. I found the following totals (for the gear they rated, which did not include trinkets, sockets, and weapons):

AC: 22,292
Str: 433
Agi: 0 (thats zero btw)
Sta: 422
AP: 248
Crit: 258
Hit: 159
Haste: 169
looking at this I went :eek: that can't be right...so would you grace us Unknowing with what your current "Perfect Gear" list would be?

Signu
09-20-2007, 04:56 AM
DW spec ads 25% to the 50% dmg on the OH for a total dmg of 62,5% on the OH. (It's 25% off 50%, not on 100% :))


I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. Everywhere else in the game percentages are additive. Take Poleaxe spec. If you have 20% base crit and then take Poleaxe spec, you now have a 25% chance to crit with axes and polearms, not 21% (5% of 20 is 1). Assume you have 5% chance to hit. Taking Precision bumps you up to 8%, not 6.15% (3% of 5 is 1.15). Unless you have hard data to prove your statement, I am disinclined to believe you.

Alchamire
09-20-2007, 05:44 AM
Edit: And seriously Alchamire you have way to much hit for a 2h spec. 9% is the limit of usefulness, anything above is totally wasted.

I was playing around with this actually, and in SSC and even Gruuls I still seem to miss more than I thought I would with this much hit. I don't plan on switching out my +hit gear because I plan on going back to DW Fury onces I get my The Planar Edge upgraded to Black Planar Edge, from there I have 2/5 Nether Vortexes to craft the Wicked Edge of the Planes and can get the last three easily. I had thought about replacing some of the +hit/crit gems with 8 strength gems, but the gear I have them on I plan on replacing soon.

Daylanor
09-20-2007, 06:58 AM
I'm pretty sure you are wrong here. Everywhere else in the game percentages are additive. Take Poleaxe spec. If you have 20% base crit and then take Poleaxe spec, you now have a 25% chance to crit with axes and polearms, not 21% (5% of 20 is 1). Assume you have 5% chance to hit. Taking Precision bumps you up to 8%, not 6.15% (3% of 5 is 1.15). Unless you have hard data to prove your statement, I am disinclined to believe you.

Nope this has been like this since Blizz introduced DW spec.

Tested and tested again. The data is so old that no one bothers so say it anymore, simply presumed everyone knows this.

Because we get rage from the extra dmg increase.

Daylanor
09-20-2007, 07:01 AM
Meeks,

I love the guide...it has set some of my guildies on thier but when a blue gear DW warrior sits 8-11th in SSC on dmg charts (8th for trash 10-11th boss). But I want to be near the rouges in the top 5. I have looked at the gear list from the Bliz site and wondered, like you said, are the best rated pieces the best. I found the following totals (for the gear they rated, which did not include trinkets, sockets, and weapons):

AC: 22,292
Str: 433
Agi: 0 (thats zero btw)
Sta: 422
AP: 248
Crit: 258
Hit: 159
Haste: 169
looking at this I went :eek: that can't be right...so would you grace us Unknowing with what your current "Perfect Gear" list would be?

You have to add allt he stats you have when you have 0 gear on as well :).

Kawfek
09-20-2007, 12:53 PM
I'm not completely Woolheaded, but that just doesn't seem like that would be the best combo of gear. I was asking for what the best set of complete gear would be for DW warriors at this point in the game.

fastidius
09-20-2007, 05:25 PM
fast offhand is only there for rage, ideally if your able to keep rotation with you slower offhand its better for both flurry and dps (vindicator's brand) is an example of a good offhand pre kara.

Also it would appear that switching offhand to mainhand when flurry is up can be useful. I am playing with a macro that swaps swords and whirlwinds but i'm not too sure if that works properly due to swapping times. I might play with a timer on it , swapping 1-1.5 seconds before WW arrives to use may work better.....

Morthengel
09-21-2007, 05:25 AM
Currently I am using a fast offhand. Have nice rage generation. Also tried slow offhand, and i can't say dps is affected. A bit less flurry procs, but more flurried MH attacks. If there is a change in dps, it should be +- 0.1%. On the other hand, I did not feel confident with the rage generation with a slow offhand. a few misses can make you starve for rage.

I think up to 1.8 is ok. Stats are important to.

Daylanor
09-21-2007, 11:32 PM
I'm not completely Woolheaded, but that just doesn't seem like that would be the best combo of gear. I was asking for what the best set of complete gear would be for DW warriors at this point in the game.

Well I went through wowhead and came up with this gear

My base stats (naked Nelf)
Str: 142 (284AP)
Agi: 101 (3% crit)
Stm: 132
Int: 33
Spir: 51
Armor: 202

Total from gear:
Armour: 9296 (2pts Armour for 1agi)
Attack Power: 1482
Hit: 15%
Crit: 13%
HP: 4690
Ignore 406 armour
Haste 123 rating (11,7% or in 2.2 8,2%)
- 2% Threat
+ 3% Crit dmg

Head:
Onslaught Battle-Helm - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30972) + 34AP+16hit
+4str meta, red.

Chest:
Midnight Chestguard - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30905) +6 all stats
+8AP, blue, red, yellow

Boots:
Dreadboots of the Legion - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32345) +12 agi
+3str, yellow, yellow

Gloves:
Grips of Silent Justice - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32278) +15 str
+4stm, red, red

Legs:
Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30903) +50AP+12agi

Shoulders:
Blood-stained Pauldrons - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30866) +30AP+10crit (aldor)

Belt:
Belt of Seething Fury - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30915)

Bracers:
Swiftsteel Bracers - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32568) +12str

Cloak:
Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32323) -threat

Neck:
Choker of Endless Nightmares - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32260)

Ring1:
Band of Devastation - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32526)

Ring2:
Stormrage Signet Ring - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32497)

Weapon MH: Mongoose
Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32236)

Weapon OH: +20str
Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32943)

Ranged:
Serpent Spine Longbow - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30105)


Gear stats + gems + enchants:
Armour: 1483+474+1213+1103+1650+1324+993+772+118 =9130
Str: 54+38+40+70+47+48+35+6+15+12+20+12+4+4+3+20 = 428
Agi: 41+6+12+12+12 = 83
Stamina: 54+64+40+37+61+34+37+32+24+6+6+4+44+33+33+15 = 469
Gem: 1 Meta (12agi, 3%added crit dmg), 4 Red (8str), 3 yellow (4crit/4str), 1 blue (4str, 6stm)
Hit:29+18+15+19+23+17+16+21+30+21+19 = 228
Crit:46+30+46+32+24+10+27+15 = 230
AP:106+72+8+34+50+30+72+66+66+44+40+38 = 626
Special: Ignore 105+175+126 armour. Haste rating 38+27+31+27

Rhaeti
09-24-2007, 12:11 AM
A slow offhand benefits from better scaling with haste, less wasted flurry charges, and if it is the same speed as your main hand you can get 4 charges from flurry sometimes.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I'm having trouble understanding how flurry can be wasted just with a faster offhand weapon. Also, I don't understand this four flurry charges thing. I thought it just lasted three after a crit? Do you mean it's easier to keep flurry always up since you're swinging slower?

Imi
09-24-2007, 12:20 AM
If you are wielding two weapons of the same speed, the game cannot calculate which one swings first, thus you essentially get four flurry charges

Rhaeti
09-24-2007, 12:57 AM
If you are wielding two weapons of the same speed, the game cannot calculate which one swings first, thus you essentially get four flurry charges

Oh ok, thanks! =]

nird
09-24-2007, 05:42 AM
This article really blow my mind. I mean, if what you say about hit rating is true; this is like a religious person realizing god doesn't exist.

Currently I'm at 224 hit, with six +8 hit gems stacked. Are you really telling me that I can drop all of these, land on around 170 hit and with a lot more crit and ap and do MORE dps?

There have been so utterly many posts claiming 220+ hit is a MUST and when I read this I was like "WHAT?!". I'm geared to start ssc/tk, meaning I got all I need from t4 raids, really, is this true? Because if it is I got some major resocketing to do and i'll cost me some gold. Are there anyone here who has tried both ways? Stacked ap/crit, then stacked hit and seen the difference?

Rak
09-24-2007, 06:10 AM
Yes. I dropped from about 270 hit rating to 185, and went up about 8% crit and gained some AP. I now out damage my rival in raids, a rogue with around 24% hit (I don't know the rating offhand). Before he was always ahead of me.

nird
09-24-2007, 06:22 AM
I notice that I really struggle with this thought. Think I've been brainwashed to a level beyond what I thought was possible. I would really like to improve my stats, which are as follows in zerker:

hit: 224
Crit: 27,8%
ap: 1760

If I drop all my hit gems for crit/ap I will have 166 hit and not-yet-calculated ap and crit. This is really tempting to try out, but for some reason I'm afraid that if it sucks in a raid I'll get smacked by my raidleader. As a furywarrior I'm struggeling enough as it is getting in to raids atm.

Rothion
09-24-2007, 07:37 AM
Hi, just registered to contribute what little I can to this thread.

First of all, the OP is spot on with just about everything. I have some minor issues about enchants (mostly about Crusader being ignored) but more about that later; I'll tackle the misinformation and misconceptions in the numerous replies first.

A lot of people seem to have trouble understanding why 1% increase in crit is better than 1% increase in hit even if you just consider auto attack (provided you're not crit capped, which shouldn't be the case anyway). Let's have a simple thought experiment of 100 attacks done with a static 100 damage per attack and 200 damage per crit:

20% crit and 80% hit chance:
20*200 + 60*100 = 10000 damage

Adding 1% crit:
21*200 + 59*100 = 10100 damage

Adding 1% hit instead:
20*200 + 61*100 = 10100 damage

You can change the chance of hit and crit around and change base damage and it won't change the outcome, critting makes up for the lost hit. We are also ignoring some advantages that crit has such as Impale and not being subject to glancing blows, which would tip the scale clearly in favor of crit. And lastly remember, this is just for auto attacks. After 9%, hit chance does nothing for your specials while crit obviously does.

But isn't +hit better for rage generation than +crit? Well, you could argue that hitting more provides more steady rage income than critting more, but that's about as far as you get with that. When the rage formula is considered, 1 crit is pretty much equal to 2 hits (crit receives 2x the multiplier on the static part of the formula) and again, Impale and glancing blow concerns bring crit out in front in the comparison.

Bottom line: It's easy to see that 1 crit is better than (or at least equal to) 2 hits in most situations, but that's the trade you're doing when stacking hit instead of crit. So don't do it. Only thing hit does have going for it is that it takes less hit rating (~16) to gain 1% than it does crit rating (22) but it's not nearly enough when you factor in the instant attacks that don't benefit from hit at all (after 9%).


Another issue which someone definitely got wrong here is the actual nature of PPM.

PPM is a rather outdated way of describing a frequency of randomly activated enchants, since
a) instant attacks definitely alter the scenario
b) as do haste effects (and rating).
As a result, an enchant such as Crusader with a nominal PPM of 1 will in fact proc quite a bit more in any realistic situation.

WWS (http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~kluthje/wow/wws-20070823-2126/rothion.html)

In a fight that lasted under 8 minutes, I was healed by Holy Strength healing 22 times and gained Holy Strength 12 times; what this means is that Crusader procced 22 times in under 8 minutes (and 10 of those times the last proc wasn't out yet). That's not 1 PPM that Crusader is supposed to have; it is in fact closer to 3 PPM. Admittedly I don't always get a posterior PPM high as that but it's nearly always at least 2. Oh and yes, I have Crusader only on my Main Hand (Potency on OH); this wasn't dual enchants.

It should be rather obvious that the proc chance of a PPM-based enchant is calculated as a static figure based on your weapon's speed and NOT adjusted down when under haste effects (I've heard this might be "fixed" in a future patch though). But don't take my word for it, go test it yourself.


As far as enchants go, Crusader already came up in the discussion above about PPM but I'd still like to point out that it only needs to be 20 seconds per minute to outperform Potency, which it in most scenarios will, by a rather clear margin.

Also while I realize that Mongoose will outscale Crusader eventually, I'm not convinced that such point is easily attainable with current gear. I haven't done the math on it but the simple fact that rogues get 120 AP on top of what warriors get from Mongoose, it would be utterly out of whack for Mongoose to outperform Potency/Crusader without the AP component and I can't believe Blizzard would have fumbled the balance of the enchants THAT badly.


Lastly it's a bit sad to see how easily people swallow false theorycraft (25% block needed for crush immunity, haste effects lowering rage per swing; I could go on and on) without really giving the matter much thought (or testing) themselves. When it really becomes annoying is when they come out to defend their false dogmas against new thought or tests, STILL without actually having (or being able) analyzed the matter themselves.

Cheers, Rothion.

Edit: Sheesh I don't know what I was thinking, hopefully no-one already replied to the bogus numbers in my crit vs hit thought experiment. Should be fixed now :)

Rak
09-24-2007, 07:48 AM
A good post, however I have to point out one somewhat incorrect point. When it comes specifically to Crusader, it is correct that haste effects will increase how many times per minute it procs for you. However, with enchants such as Mongoose, this is false.

As per testing found here: Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15553-proc_per_minute_mechanics_haste/)
Thread summary:


Fiery Weapon (tested on Live), Lifestealing, and Crusader (tested on the PTR) all see unchanged proc chances when hasted - i.e., they benefit from haste. All other procs tested so far on either Live or the PTR have a reduced proc chance while hasted to maintain a constant PPM.

Instant attacks use the unhasted weapon speed to determine proc chance.

Rothion
09-24-2007, 08:04 AM
Aah good to know, I've only tested Crusader myself and assumed (yeah yeah, mother of all f**k ups) that the mechanic would be the same for other enchants.

That makes Mongoose even less appealing for DPS warriors though and in fact I've often noticed in WWS that the dual-Mongoose-toting fury warriors in my guild often don't even have as many Mongoose procs than my mainhand-only Crusader.

Meeks
09-24-2007, 08:13 AM
After patch I will be thropwing potency on my offhand but I still feel that mongoose will out preform crusader for the main hand. I admit it would be pretty close and that if you can get crusader cheap it would be a solid way to go. In fact crusader might be better until you get to SSC. But once you have a season 2 weapon or better mongoose will outpreform.

Chris2004
09-24-2007, 07:29 PM
How good would you consider Thunderfury as an offhand?

Meeks
09-25-2007, 05:20 AM
Thunderfury shined because of its proc and offhands will not see many of those. I would use a season 1 or kara equivelent offhand over a thunderfury. Though I have never had one so someone that does may know better.

Kazeyonoma
09-25-2007, 09:10 AM
a good offhand from kara are the daggers, since from a fury standpoint, your offhand should be fast and generate rage with tons of stats.

what better than the 3 daggers from karazhan.

I use Emerald Ripper
another choice is the famed Malchazeen
or for socketing customization: Blade of the Unrequited

Meeks
09-25-2007, 09:14 AM
Speed has nothing to do with total rage generation. It is only more smooth as opposed to burst. Same end numbers though.

Kazeyonoma
09-25-2007, 09:42 AM
agreed, i just like the smooth rage philosophy I suppose. Slow/fast has always been my preference and daggers fit the bill in the fast OH nicely with all of the stats they provide as well.

Thinking of picking up the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver once I finish my 4piece set in arenas (3 more weeks I think, then cleaver/shield) what do you think? Currently my mh is crappy its the Reflex Blades but its the only slow mh weapon i can use =(

Meeks
09-25-2007, 09:44 AM
The axe is very nice especially for an orc. Go for it. I would even get it before your 4 piece. But then again I arena for pve gear so my opinion is skewed.

Kazeyonoma
09-25-2007, 09:45 AM
yeh i want to get my shield and fury axe already, but my 3v3 team of course wants me to gear up for the teams sake, the more I improve, the more we win. like seriously. I'm the key to the team it seems =-x

Yorg
09-28-2007, 09:07 AM
Ok, shoot me, i'm rogue in plate.
I use the best 1H weapons i got so far: [Emerald Ripper] (OH) and [Malchazeen] (MH).
What weapon would you advise to replace Malchazeen as MH ?
We are running Kara once in a while, Gruul is on farm, Void too, and going to Lurker, Mag and Hydross in that order.

Daylanor
09-28-2007, 04:12 PM
Ok, shoot me, i'm rogue in plate.
I use the best 1H weapons i got so far: [Emerald Ripper] (OH) and [Malchazeen] (MH).
What weapon would you advise to replace Malchazeen as MH ?
We are running Kara once in a while, Gruul is on farm, Void too, and going to Lurker, Mag and Hydross in that order.

Decap/Illhoof mace in MH, Malchazeen in OH. I seem to recall 1 sword in SSC that's an upgrade on Decap.

Rothion
09-29-2007, 11:51 AM
I've been thinking about the relation between AP and crit and I think I've come up with a fairly simple and intuitive way to estimate the AP/crit equivalence. I'm not familiar with the DW Fury dps spreadsheet and whether it's based on some sort of dps cycle or what so I might be reinventing the wheel here but my way doesn't involve a spreadsheet of any kind so it might be helpful for people who just want a quick number.

The idea is that at any given point, you can double your paperdoll dps (henceforth abbreviated pd dps) by either getting enough AP (14 times your current pd dps) to double it or getting 100% crit. Neither goal can be realized in most situations nor is pdl dps very representative of your actual dps, but for comparison purposes I feel it is fairly decent indicator of potential dps (all other things being equal, a player with higher pd should out dps another player with lower pd dps roughly by the ratio of their pd dps). Your white damage of course scales 1:1 with your paperdoll dps and so does Whirlwind; Bloodthirst however scales slightly faster, doubling your pd dps via AP would give 14 times your main hand DPS damage to your BT in addition to doubling it. But then again there's Impale to balance the situation somewhat.

It should also be noted that gaining 100% more damage is a linear process whether you do it with AP or crit, so 1% crit is worth the same at any given point (as is the equivalent amount of AP).

Anyway, with all that said the formula is actually very simple:

(AP equivalent to 1% crit) = ([current main hand paperdoll dps]*14)/100

For example with my mostly itemlevel ~115-130 (Decapitator MH, 1743 unbuffed AP) gear this works out to be 216*0.14 = 30.24 =~ 30. Adding 50 dps from raid buffs (700 AP, picked as an easy number) would give me 37 AP to 1% crit equivalence (if you're interested in gem equivalence, just multiply the number by 0.36 for 8 crit rating gems).

I'll be happy answer any questions/comments.

Morthengel
09-29-2007, 11:01 PM
I suppose by paperdoll dps you mean white dps right?

You should include flurry somewhere in your estimation, as it changes the importance of crit % drastically.

Morthengel
09-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Today I stopped being lazy and worked on the fury dps spreadsheet i got from elitistjerks for an hour.
First I corrected it for windfury nerf. I assumed raid buffs, with feral druid and non-ench shaman in group. Used ssc/tk level gear.
First i kept hit rating constant, and changed crit rating, then changed AP accordingly to keep dps constant, between 35%-45% crit.
Then I kept AP constant, and done similar with hit rating again between 35-45% crit.

The result I found was roughly 1strength=1crit rating=2hit rating between 38-42% crit.
Outside this, hit either goes extremely low or gets high to the cap, unable to meet the dps.
At high crits AP starts to gain more importance, due to the diminishing returns in flurry uptime. but at reasonale crit rates (between 30-35 unbuffed) the above equation is valid.

I am going to use it when gearing up in MH/BT. I hope it helps to you also.

Rothion
10-02-2007, 04:00 AM
Your spreadsheet estimation gives 42 AP to crit evaluation which seems to be fairly well in line with my model since you assumed slightly higher level of gear.

As to what comes to Flurry, I don't feel it really merits consideration since it would add a layer of complexity which has an effect on the outcome that I wouldn't call drastic. Comparing 0% crit and 100% (ie. 0% Flurry uptime and 100% Flurry uptime) you only end up with 12.5% increase in total dps assuming 50% of your damage is white. That's only 0.125% per crit % (if we simplify things a bit by assuming Flurry uptime is a linear function of crit %) and the effect on AP/crit equivalence can't be higher than that either.

Morthengel
10-03-2007, 11:36 PM
Yes, your estimation is quite a good one.

12.5% I believe is a big number. It is the difference being 6th or 2nd on a damage table most of the time. And faster rage generation added to the rage from crits will make you use heroic strike a lot, hence reducing MH misses, with some increased damage. (Yes, I am one of those who find the innate threat of heroic strike trivial compared to it's damage in a fury setting.)

I believe flurry is a key element of the dps of a fury warrior.

The spreadsheet I use considers all the above (including rage burning HS).

The relationship between flurry uptime and crit% is not linear, but it is a 3rd degree function:

flurry uptime=1-(1-crit)^3. So at some point, you get affected badly from diminishing returns. I found that to be around 44%raidbuffed crit. There, hit and AP becomes more important.

Finelle
10-04-2007, 06:22 AM
Hmm, a question, since heroic strike adds constant damage regardless of AP, the only other effects are the removal of a glance chance, why does it cause such a drastic increase in DPS?

Meeks
10-04-2007, 06:34 AM
Hmm, a question, since heroic strike adds constant damage regardless of AP, the only other effects are the removal of a glance chance, why does it cause such a drastic increase in DPS?

It is not a drastic increase in dps but it is noticeable. It removes glancing, removes chance to miss, adds damage, and is effected by impale.

Rothion
10-04-2007, 01:12 PM
12.5% is the difference between 0% and 100% flurry uptime; those are not very realistic things to compare directly. It just gives a rough idea as to what the difference a single crit % gives.

Flurry uptime as a function of crit % would seem to be a third degree curve but that's really only when not considering instant attacks at all. 1-(1-crit)^3 is the chance of Flurry running out which isn't necessarily the same thing even when ignoring instants (though both being third degree curves one could be considered an estimate of the other); but instants can and do alter the scenario quite a bit. For example for 2h Slam dps rotation the chance of Flurry running out is more like (1-crit)^9 since you're doing 2 instants (counting Slam) for every 1 auto attack).

In short, the effective Flurry uptime isn't an easy problem and it's too sensitive to different circumstances that I don't think it's really worth trying to solve accurately. I did write a short matlab script a while back to model it (which didn't include instants either) but I didn't plot a curve for different crit % values; I might do that some day and compare it to the chance of losing flurry curve (1-(1-crit)^3).

Morthengel
10-05-2007, 06:03 AM
@ Heroic strike: It is really nice to see 2k+ heroic strike crit and 3k+ bloodthirst crit at the same time..Impale bonus and no glancing/miss makes the difference significant.

@Flurry: Yes, 1-(1-crit)^3 is a rough formula and does not include the instants. But I dont think instans will make a significant difference, as you are using 2 of them, 1 on 6 other on 8 secs cooldown. Very less attacks compared to your flurried swings. The spreadsheet I used simulates everything tho.

talonkylor
10-06-2007, 05:38 AM
Meeks a question i ask you about your talent build... COuld u make a version that isn't Linked to your character?

For the reason that when u respec or something like that it is hard to look ar your fury spec then.

Meeks
10-06-2007, 01:21 PM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czhbZVV0VgxoVuqo)

Meeks
10-08-2007, 07:32 AM
Was recently updated with some minor fixes/additions.

Daylanor
10-08-2007, 12:51 PM
I approve of the 3rd edition :). Much better read and inputting the info where needed :D.

Rhaeti
10-08-2007, 01:13 PM
I thought I'd add this here for any interested dps warriors.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=1153025807&sid=1&pageNo=1#13)

The planned 10% threat reduction will be in addition to the current 10% AP for improved berserker stance.

Also, Meeks, can you go into a bit more detail about what is wrong with the latest version of the EJ DPS spreadsheet?

Meeks
10-09-2007, 05:21 AM
I thought I'd add this here for any interested dps warriors.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=1153025807&sid=1&pageNo=1#13)

The planned 10% threat reduction will be in addition to the current 10% AP for improved berserker stance.

Also, Meeks, can you go into a bit more detail about what is wrong with the latest version of the EJ DPS spreadsheet?


Have not seen if they updated it in the past 2-3 weeks but before that it was flat broken and calcualted some thigns oddly and did not factor things like the windfurry nerf and things like that.

Rhaeti
10-09-2007, 10:43 AM
Check out the latest update. A different person took over the spreadsheet, and he updates it pretty frequently. You just have to keep up with the thread for the latest updates. Here's the latest version: http://elitistjerks.com/502508-post1853.html

Khormid
10-09-2007, 12:34 PM
Amazing guide!!

nird
10-10-2007, 08:45 AM
Meeks, I have a question. A lot of people in my guild keep saying subtlety is better then agi enchant on my cloak as fury warrior. I can honestly say I've never seen a fury warrior with anything else than 12 agility. Will the -2 % threat do more dps then the -0,36% crit loss?

Meeks
10-10-2007, 08:47 AM
If you are consistently threat capped the threat enchant is better. If not the agi enchant is better.

A lot also do not have it because very very few people could do the enchant until recently.

Which to do is a decision you will have to make for yourself.

Ksala
10-12-2007, 01:12 AM
Assuming the 2.3 changes (whirlwind hitting with both weapons) make it onto live in their current state do you think that slow offhands will become the norm for fury warriors?

Meeks
10-12-2007, 06:08 AM
After the Midol kicks in and my tears dry up I will start to reconsider some things.

Morthengel
10-14-2007, 01:58 AM
So whirlwind will attack with both weapons...Does this mean the mainhand part of whirlwind can now miss even if you are above 9% hit?

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2007, 02:10 AM
No, i tested, 9% hit was all I needed to never miss with whirlwind, it still counts as a special attack, each one factors 9% hit.

And definitely slow/slow will be favored with this recent change, but die hard fans of slow/fast will probably keep it anyways,

Cogswell
10-14-2007, 04:14 AM
So whirlwind will attack with both weapons...Does this mean the mainhand part of whirlwind can now miss even if you are above 9% hit?

I'm guessing no since it is still a yellow attack. I have yet to get on the PTR though so I could be wrong
Edit: Kazeyonoma beat me to it ^^

Ungish
10-22-2007, 12:06 AM
So after reading some of this, I should be gemming +str?. Also should i go ahead and enchant potency on both weapons also??

Daylanor
10-22-2007, 01:20 PM
So after reading some of this, I should be gemming +str?. Also should i go ahead and enchant potency on both weapons also??

Gem Str if you don't want the socket bonus, I always go for str/crit/hit bonuses if it's +3 rating or more.

Only gems I use are, 8str, 4str/4crit, 4str/6stm, 4crit/6stm(if I need to boost my crit a bit). I would also use any +20AP gem I could get since that is more AP than 8str + kings gives you.

Nobody
10-23-2007, 03:17 AM
Meeks, great guide in general, meshes very well with what I've been preaching for a while now.

I was wondering if you might consider adding a section about armor penetration to the guide. With the advent of the new loot from badges of justice, as well as Zul'Aman and season three gear being readily available, many people who could previously only envy Black temple armor pen gear now have to evaluate the stat against the trinity of str/crit/hit.

Personally I have been going with the rough evaluation of 7 armor penetration = 1 str = 1 crit rating when trying to evaluate different pieces. This isn't a perfect rubric, but I think it's a close enough approximation that it shouldn't lead me to far astray when evaluating which items I want to pick up.

Morthengel
10-23-2007, 06:13 AM
Armor penetration increases your dps as a % of your current dps. And it scales non linearly. The more you stack, the more benefit you get from upgrading it.

Difficult. I think it is a good idea to stack something around 500 (3 pieces let's say) and adding dual executioner. That will get you to 1300 penetration most of the time, which means the bosses armor will be below 3k.

From there on, we will be able to consider what it is worth really. and decide to stack more of it or not to gimp other stats.

To me, it looks like it is a great stat.

Meeks
10-23-2007, 06:39 AM
I am waiting until after the patch goes live and I know the final changes then I will work on the 4th edition. There will be an armor penetration section.

zaltais
10-23-2007, 08:42 AM
Also, haste rating has received a major nerf and I am not sure if it has been reevaluated yet on the guides. Armor penetration is also not rated with any points as it is impossible to put an exact value to it without knowing your targets armor. This means any item with armor penetration will be rated lower then itís actually value. Those disclaimers aside they are still good guides.


Just thought I'd drop in and say thank you for a great guide and also post a link to this thread on elitistjerks with some pretty nice information about armor values for most raiding bosses: http://http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/

Faze
10-23-2007, 09:39 AM
I am waiting until after the patch goes live and I know the final changes then I will work on the 4th edition. There will be an armor penetration section.

I love your guide and it has made me a much better fury warrior then I previously where. I have even gotten comments from guildes wondering how I have gotten so much better at dpsing after reading the guide :p

I just want to say that it's awsome that you are doing an armor penetration section on the next version, cause I'm really lost sometimes when it comes to that. Haven't gotten to many armor penetration items yet, but still.

Nobody
10-24-2007, 12:50 AM
I am waiting until after the patch goes live and I know the final changes then I will work on the 4th edition. There will be an armor penetration section.

Good to know.


Armor penetration increases your dps as a % of your current dps. And it scales non linearly. The more you stack, the more benefit you get from upgrading it.

Difficult. I think it is a good idea to stack something around 500 (3 pieces let's say) and adding dual executioner. That will get you to 1300 penetration most of the time, which means the bosses armor will be below 3k.

From there on, we will be able to consider what it is worth really. and decide to stack more of it or not to gimp other stats.

To me, it looks like it is a great stat.

I agree, looks like a very tastey stat, especially for those into black temple/hyjal gear. What I'm personally questioning right now, as a warrior with access to only the gear at the start of SSC and PvP gear, is how much I should sacrifice my other stats come the release of ZA/new badge loot. At the moment I'm looking at both the shoulders and belt from badges(damn red belt of battle pattern not ever dropping), but both pieces would cost me significant amounts of crit to pick up.

it seems like a lot of the lower ilevel armor penetration gear has a focus on strength as well, making it very good for high consistent damage, at the cost of crit rating.

Taruo
10-26-2007, 10:56 AM
Meeks I have a question regarding the rotation.

Would it not be better to open up with a Battle Shout,
so when the the first BT comes up it has the additonal
AP buff, instead of injecting it into the rotation on a cooldown?

Excellent guide by the way!

nird
10-26-2007, 12:04 PM
Hey meeks, two questions for you:

1) How's potency working out compared to mongoose in OH? You changed this after the 2.2 patch, right? Any noticable difference?

2) When 2.3 hits I will be going from a fast arena season 2 weapon to a slow arena season 1 weapon in offhand. Now, since it's the offhand, do you think I will get a huge dps loss because of this? Will it be noticable? There's a 6 dps difference on the weapons and very minor stat differences (2 ap, 1 hit and 0.2% crit less).

Herem
10-26-2007, 12:06 PM
Meeks I have a question regarding the rotation.

Would it not be better to open up with a Battle Shout,
so when the the first BT comes up it has the additonal
AP buff, instead of injecting it into the rotation on a cooldown?

Excellent guide by the way!


Pre-pull, you should use Bloodrage/Battleshout then start your dps rotation.

Morthengel
10-28-2007, 01:43 AM
Just made some work and wanted to share.

Today, I stopped being lazy and went back to the spreadsheet I had from elitistjerks, to do some calculations about Armor Reduction.

The spreadsheet calculates my raid dps ~15% accuracy, so I think that may give good idea. (around 1k dps).

I got the boss armor values from elitistjerks too, and used the following formula: [%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) I assumed an average boss, that is having 3800 armor after 5x sunders+feaerie (spelling!) fire.

Here, the enemy being us, so the level is 70. (The formula is meant for tanking purposes originally.)

So I made 11 iterations. Each time decreased the bosses armor by 150 down to 2150, since it is typical value of the penetration we get on a piece of pve gear.

First I calculated the dps for each level of penetration. Then went back to no penetration, and calculated the amount of strength required for each previously calculated dps by trial and error.

I was expecting a considerable scaling, but to my surprise, the scaling effect of armor penetration was not so huge.

2150-->2300 1 strength was equvialent to 4.5 penetration
3650-->3800 1 strength was equvilaent to 5.5 penetration

And obviously, it averaged 5.

So when this is added to the result of my previous calculations (also postedd on this thread), it looks like this:

1str=1crit rating=2hit rating=5Armor reduction

So now when I am going to calculate pverall effectiveness for an item with penetration, I will simply divide the penetration to 5 and add the result to strength.

Nobody
10-29-2007, 11:06 PM
Just made some work and wanted to share.

Today, I stopped being lazy and went back to the spreadsheet I had from elitistjerks, to do some calculations about Armor Reduction.

The spreadsheet calculates my raid dps ~15% accuracy, so I think that may give good idea. (around 1k dps).

I got the boss armor values from elitistjerks too, and used the following formula: [%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) I assumed an average boss, that is having 3800 armor after 5x sunders+feaerie (spelling!) fire.

Here, the enemy being us, so the level is 70. (The formula is meant for tanking purposes originally.)

So I made 11 iterations. Each time decreased the bosses armor by 150 down to 2150, since it is typical value of the penetration we get on a piece of pve gear.

First I calculated the dps for each level of penetration. Then went back to no penetration, and calculated the amount of strength required for each previously calculated dps by trial and error.

I was expecting a considerable scaling, but to my surprise, the scaling effect of armor penetration was not so huge.

2150-->2300 1 strength was equvialent to 4.5 penetration
3650-->3800 1 strength was equvilaent to 5.5 penetration

And obviously, it averaged 5.

So when this is added to the result of my previous calculations (also postedd on this thread), it looks like this:

1str=1crit rating=2hit rating=5Armor reduction

So now when I am going to calculate pverall effectiveness for an item with penetration, I will simply divide the penetration to 5 and add the result to strength.

Thanks a ton for working this out. I've been too busy lately too work this out for myself, though I might try and make some time to run some numbers on my own gear. Out of curiosity, which version of the spreadsheet did you run, and what is your general gear level at? I know that since armor pen ends up being a percentage increase to your total damage it scales better at the high end, I'm wondering if your evaluation of 5 armor pen = 1 str is true for where I'm at in gear, or if I should evaluate lower or higher. (For reference, my armory is here (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Katrael) )

Changing topics, I've been evaluating haste rating since the nerf as slightly better than hit rating, as it applies to heroic strike/cleave damage as well as auto-attack, but otherwise seems to be functionally the same. Is there anything important I'm missing here as far as other differences between the two?

Morthengel
10-29-2007, 11:33 PM
The version I use is Warrior_0[1].1.1.3. I nerfed windfury and haste in this spreadsheet myself and added some of my gear that was missing here. So it will be better if you get a newer version.

I prioritize rage dump instead of gcd dump, by this way the spreadsheet doesnt spam hamstring while simulating my dps. (This was old strategy to proc windfury before the nerf). Instead it spams heroic strike.

You are right, the benefit of armor penetration depends on your current dps. My gear is T5 level. Here are my stats:

1982AP (no BS)
33%crit
170hit

I did some work on the haste effects. But was unable to find anything meaningful. The results seemed to be fluctuating a lot and was unstable. Still working on it. If someone can come up with something it will be great.

Tegh
11-02-2007, 09:42 AM
Hey there, I've been reading this guide for quite some time, since I used to raid as Prot but quit about three months ago (after we downed Hydross and Void Reaver) and have since been a pvp freak and now recently restarted raiding as fury under another guild. We're currently 4/6 SSC and 1/4 TK.

I was wondering if anyone could explain the following combat log; http://wowwebstats.com/amv5r5jlkggvm

I have missed quite a few special attacks according to this log, and I have around 185-205 hit rating depending on what gear I wear. I think I had carrot on a stick equipped in that fight too. -_-

Anyway, I would like to know if anyone knows why my specials missed when I have above 100 hit rating, it seems to go against what was wrote in this guide. Or maybe I'm confusing myself as I'm new to these online logs.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Here's my Armory URL: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Trollbane&n=Tegh

Signu
11-02-2007, 09:44 AM
If you do not have precision, you need 142 hit rating to be at 9%

EDIT:

EDIT: Here's my Armory URL:

OK NVM

Herem
11-02-2007, 01:34 PM
Hey there, I've been reading this guide for quite some time, since I used to raid as Prot but quit about three months ago (after we downed Hydross and Void Reaver) and have since been a pvp freak and now recently restarted raiding as fury under another guild. We're currently 4/6 SSC and 1/4 TK.

I was wondering if anyone could explain the following combat log; http://wowwebstats.com/amv5r5jlkggvm

I have missed quite a few special attacks according to this log, and I have around 185-205 hit rating depending on what gear I wear. I think I had carrot on a stick equipped in that fight too. -_-

Anyway, I would like to know if anyone knows why my specials missed when I have above 100 hit rating, it seems to go against what was wrote in this guide. Or maybe I'm confusing myself as I'm new to these online logs.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Here's my Armory URL: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Trollbane&n=Tegh

You specials didn't miss because of your hit rating. They missed due to Dodges and Parries. Extend the log to see the more detailed information.

Or are you asking why you were dodged or parried so much?

That's a coin toss, well at least until the patch comes with Expertise :)

You know this already, try to attack from behind as much as possible for the parries. Great Fury warriors have great rotations whether they have to move or not (key bindings and - no clicking hotbars :), and are able to stay behind the mob at all times, even its running a muck. For dodges get expertise come the patch, it will also help with teh 1-2% parries you get over a night, from bosses turning, i.e. lurker in spout.

It looks like you just got unlucky with the limited specials you were able to do in the fight. And your crit rate on HS was really unlucky.

Were you threat capped? If not try to do more HS's and get your White damage closer to 35%. Rage shouldn't be an issue since you can get as much of it you want in that encounter.

But overall top 3, good stuff.

Tegh
11-03-2007, 09:18 AM
You specials didn't miss because of your hit rating. They missed due to Dodges and Parries. Extend the log to see the more detailed information.

Or are you asking why you were dodged or parried so much?

That's a coin toss, well at least until the patch comes with Expertise :)

You know this already, try to attack from behind as much as possible for the parries. Great Fury warriors have great rotations whether they have to move or not (key bindings and - no clicking hotbars :), and are able to stay behind the mob at all times, even its running a muck. For dodges get expertise come the patch, it will also help with teh 1-2% parries you get over a night, from bosses turning, i.e. lurker in spout.

It looks like you just got unlucky with the limited specials you were able to do in the fight. And your crit rate on HS was really unlucky.

Were you threat capped? If not try to do more HS's and get your White damage closer to 35%. Rage shouldn't be an issue since you can get as much of it you want in that encounter.

But overall top 3, good stuff.Yeah the parries would have been where I had to move out of the cave ins, or where I had to readjust because the tanks were moving, but I didn't know about extending the stats so ty for that.

I was pretty close to over aggroing when he hit 10% so I had to ease off with the executes, having been just under the two tanks before 20%. Atm I'm going for AP / crit more than hit - need a better main hand though so I crafted dragonmaw last night and working on getting the nethers once I respecc back to fury on Sunday.

Ty for your help mate.

Morthengel
11-03-2007, 11:20 PM
GJ there, 100% dps time :).

Herem
11-05-2007, 09:46 AM
Yeah the parries would have been where I had to move out of the cave ins, or where I had to readjust because the tanks were moving, but I didn't know about extending the stats so ty for that.

I was pretty close to over aggroing when he hit 10% so I had to ease off with the executes, having been just under the two tanks before 20%. Atm I'm going for AP / crit more than hit - need a better main hand though so I crafted dragonmaw last night and working on getting the nethers once I respecc back to fury on Sunday.

Ty for your help mate.

NP, Ya figured you were threat capped there a little. If you ever got the Fetish of the Sand Reaver trinket, that thing is huge on Boss fights. The trinket can make the difference for a fury warrior. After the path hits, the extra 10% threat reduction would have made a huge difference for you too. I have the Prism of Inner Calm also, and I'm inclined to say Fetish > Prism.

Ya The mace is a great weapon. I can get my Dragonstrike to proc about 15 times in a 6 min fight.

nird
11-05-2007, 02:58 PM
Hey meeks, one question for you:

How's potency working out compared to mongoose in OH? You changed this after the 2.2 patch, right? Any noticable difference?


I guess it got lost in all the posts. Bump =)

Meeks
11-06-2007, 07:32 AM
I guess it got lost in all the posts. Bump =)

I put potency on my offhand more because it was a weapon I did not plan on using for a very long time and it was cheaper. However I have been happy with how its work. If money was never an issue I would probably mongoose it but I have no problem using potency.

Kerafyrm
11-07-2007, 06:03 AM
I saw a post over on the wow warrior forums about someone claiming that the offhand WW hit in 2.3 does not proc flurry. Can anyone who has been on the test realm confirm/deny?

Krissam
11-10-2007, 04:08 AM
I saw a post over on the wow warrior forums about someone claiming that the offhand WW hit in 2.3 does not proc flurry. Can anyone who has been on the test realm confirm/deny?

omg never thought of that, that's nice for us undergeared people without a lot of crit :)

starting to see this patch as more an more of a buff for the undergeared aswell.

edit: that is ofcourse if it does proc-

Ciderhelm
11-15-2007, 02:21 AM
Bumping this to make sure it's visible.

Meeks
11-15-2007, 12:29 PM
Assuming all goes well this weekend there will be a fourth edition going up on sunday/monday.

Wish me a speedy recovery from my hangovers on sat/sun so I can finish the new guide.

Faze
11-19-2007, 12:43 PM
That's good news! :)

I want to know how you have your talents now in 2.3, but the armory is messing with me and saying that an error has occurred everytime I search for your character :(

Meeks
11-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Cider has not updated the name of the post but the new guide is live! I linked a wowhead build under the talents section.

fastidius
11-26-2007, 03:34 PM
Flurry is bugged atm, shaman and warriors..

Offhand will proc flurry once it's fixed according to an Ingame GM but who know how soon definately not this week from all the word. Also it doesn't proc rampage.

Hopefully it will be fixed soon and we can get our extra damage back, I know i'm feeling a significant lack of flurry

Azev
12-01-2007, 12:25 AM
Another lurker - finally deciding to register/post. My question here is about the BSing weapons vs. the crafted BP.

From my limited experience as raiding on my warrior (main is a resto druid 5/5 hyjal 6/9 BT) what would be the best step to take? As my warrior has been mostly an alt I bumbled around on him and crafted Thunder, have the planar edge chilling in my bank, and wear my trusty bulwark of kings for DPSing. Am I best off continuing to wear my bulwark and eventually upgrade it to ancient - or will I find a replacement in SSC/TK, or will one of the t3 BSing weapons be a bigger asset to me? I've been considering upgrading my planar edge for quite some time and tossing executioner on it, but haven't been able to commit not knowing.

Thanks!

I don't think getting 2 vortexes for my chest upgrade will be *that* difficult (maybe a few weeks but nothing huge - theres a bit of a list for them but you know how it goes).

Edit: I suppose it would be wise to put what I'm currently using/have available: MH: Spiteblade(mongoose - waiting for a better MH for exec) OH: Merc Glad's Hacker (mongoose). In the bank I have a planar edge (not using due to Bulwark of Kings), a Fool's Bane (most likely candidate atm for OH a slow weapon - feedback on this?) the Big Bad Wolf's Paw (not really impressed by this thing, but I have it laying around). I'm aiming at a Vengeful MH in the near(ish) future, but wouldn't like to rely upon that for the time being.

Meeks
12-03-2007, 07:23 AM
The tier 3 1 handed mace provides incredible bang for the buck. The chest piece is also pretty damn good and can last you a long time.

I would probably go with the mace but it is acceptable to stay with the chest.

Fehuruz
12-06-2007, 03:45 AM
I was noticing none of the guides have the Insignia of the Mag'hari Hero listed for the neck item. Is that because it is Horde only?

Feh

Horgar
12-08-2007, 12:22 PM
I read that mongoose for offhand but I've read a bunch about it really being a rogue enchant. Since they get ap *and* crit from agi.. plus having a "proccing" enchant on OH vs a static one given it has no increased chance to proc from instants (except ww I suppose now... guess that changes the dynamics a bit).

Also read that even though they don't stack if 2 executioners proc - it does refresh duration. I'm not sure about the proc rate but if it's not up most of the time on MH only it still seems beneficial to have it on OH.

Dantos
12-10-2007, 03:18 PM
I've been working on leveling my Fury Warrior with the hope of reaching 70 and starting to raid. This has definitely been a help as far as informing me about what to shoot for before I accidentally wasted a lot of money on gems. A question, though.

Are there are spreadsheets out there that give of a list of the rough "required" stats needed for a fury warrior to be ready for Karazhan raiding? Obviously there's just the general gear requirement, making sure you're not stuffed full of crap greens, but to give me a better focus on the amounts (not just the types) of stats I need. Obviously there isn't one right answer, but a general idea would be helpful. Thanks.

Meeks
12-11-2007, 04:30 AM
May not be the answer you are looking for but when you have replaced all your greens with level 70 blues or better you will be ready. Couple arena/rep/badge epics can help out a lot but are not necessary.

Something things I would recommend doing to prepare yourself gear wise would be to go for at least 2 pieces of doomplate. Heroic slave pen has great epic legs as does heroic mech.

Dunvegan
12-11-2007, 10:25 AM
Are there are spreadsheets out there that give of a list of the rough "required" stats needed for a fury warrior to be ready for Karazhan raiding? Obviously there's just the general gear requirement, making sure you're not stuffed full of crap greens, but to give me a better focus on the amounts (not just the types) of stats I need. Obviously there isn't one right answer, but a general idea would be helpful. Thanks.

As long as you have 1500 ap unbuffed and 200 +hit you will be fine for Kara. Dom some quests in SMV and Netherstorm to get you gear to be Kara ready.

Lord_ZED
12-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Brooch of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33296#comments:id=199573)
What do you think about this neck for DPS ?? As dwarf i got no expertise And those Dodges and parry are realy bad for rage generation. I know its a very good tanking neck but what you think about dps ??.

Horgar
12-11-2007, 03:55 PM
200+hit is excessive for starting kara. Go back and read the first post in this thread on the subject of +hit.

Get ~9% hit (like 145 hit rating without precision) and you get to str/crit > hit. With fury you need 25% or so crit to keep flurry up most of the time.


On the subject of expertise... that neck looks pretty nice. Considering pushing yellow misses off the table is the #1 priority in any fury guide I would lean toward pushing yellow dodges off as a fairly high priority, too. With the good solid 22 hit on there, also, it's a great piece to have even if you don't use it 100% of the time. Getting all your +hit in a few pieces gives you much more flexibility in your other slots.

Lord_ZED
12-11-2007, 06:36 PM
I know how much hit rating i need i stay at 190-210 range but i i whas thinking more in expertise on that neck. Is there any other plate that gives that stat and does not drop in BT or hyal ?? Humans own whit their radical 10 expertise more thats 2.5% atm. Shame dwarfs does not have Axe spec whit in mine opinion sux cos Dwarfs loves axes :D. Next week i should have my S3 legs those own mechanar ones and T5 ones to when i look at them t5 got only 9str and 10 hit rating more vs 0.5%more crit (about) and 80 Arp. Whit those i should hit 400 ArP + executioner proc :D. I realy dont see point of going more than 30-31% crit in zerk stance on raid got flury up almost whole time whit druid in party and other bufs i get 39% atm. Os i aim in AP and ArP.

Horgar
12-12-2007, 12:30 AM
found the answer on wowwiki - "Hit rating decreases chance to miss rather than increases chance to hit."

GarrettJaxx
12-13-2007, 07:00 PM
Howdy - new to this forum / registered site. Glad I found it, the level of discussion is up where I want it. I'm gearing up as Fury, after a year or more of tanking for my guild. I burned out on tanking.

Hit rating's now up there, the Romulo Trinket dropped and up at around 193 now. But my crit and AP are lower than I'd like. Rather than just re-gemming, I want to just focus the gear I go after.

I have a friend (Fury spec) who says "all strength, just go all strength, and blow off agility." Wondering - when we talk about "balancing" the key stats (str/ap/crit/hit/stam) does anyone have a suggestion as to what to lead with? Priorities?

Apologies if this is repetitive (one of the downsides of coming in to a Forum late). Feel free to point me to other threads you've bookmarked, instead of just replying, if you prefer.

Best,
Darr

Meeks
12-13-2007, 07:04 PM
Please link your armory so I can see what type of gear we are talking about then I would be happy to see if there is anything I could suggest.

As far as overall balance str is by the far the best stat at lower levels of gear. As you pass 3000 ap raid buffed then crit catches up and they go back and forth in relation to each other depending on how much of each you have at the time.

In broad generalities at high levels of gear str=crit>hit

GarrettJaxx
12-13-2007, 09:35 PM
Please link your armory so I can see what type of gear we are talking about then I would be happy to see if there is anything I could suggest.

Many thanks Meeks. Of interest too, my build. Just never saw the importance of 1/2 WW, but now I see for a rotation it is recommended. Might do that, but hate to see the points leave Execute.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Darranna

(PS ignore my raid buffs, they may still be there (MoW and Flask of RAssault). Any comments welcome!

Meeks
12-13-2007, 09:53 PM
GG armory being down. As far as 1/2 imp WW it is required to be on top of your game. The difference in your rotation between having it and not is astounding.

GarrettJaxx
12-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Ya armory was slow/down/etc.

I'm going to respec 1/2 WW as soon as I get logged on later today. I can afford to lose a point in Execute if it's as potent as you mention.

I'm looking forward to trying a sound, 'timed' rotation.

You don't macro it, by any chance, do you? My thought with Fury had always been to leave variety in GC usage and such, so random 'cast' macros seemed clunky for my playstyle. Your opinion?

Meeks
12-14-2007, 07:17 AM
I have never made a macro for a skill rotation. Prefer to be in controle of exactly when each of my abilities goes off.

Brickhuase
12-14-2007, 08:51 AM
so meeks whats your opinion on s3 gear for the armor pen/crit and small amount of hit it provides? The 2 2.6 axes i was thinking of picking up next as i am just not satisfied with not consistantly being top 5 in dps with 2 handed anymore. Working on kael i feel i need to bring more to the table, i have access to all arena gear/za and t5 save kael. But after looking into armor pen i'm really liking the s3 helm/chest/legs and the two slow high dps s3 weapons. ( i have the arena s3 armor already)
Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver
Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper

The weapons would put me at about 550 armor pen and i would put executioner mainhand mongoose off.

Meeks
12-14-2007, 09:25 AM
If your guild does not have another 33/28 ms bloodfrenzy warrior I woudl probably stay specced that way.

That being said the season 3 helm and chest are amazing. The legs are a little less so but still great.

Alchamire
12-14-2007, 02:43 PM
So I'm curious here. With the changes to Whirlwind making it only logical to go with a slow/slow MH/OH combo. What if your offhand has alot of Expertise, like The Brutalizer. It has 21 Expertise, or 5.3% chance that your opponents will dodge/parry your attacks. Sure, the top end damage on it isn't too great and it doesn't have any supporting DPS stats to it like Hit or Crit, but the Expertise alone is imo greater than stacking on another 5% worth of Hit. Now throwing on a bad ass axe like Rising Tide in conjunction with this would seemingly work pretty well. Combined your pushing the chances of your attacks being dodged/parried as well as increasing your hit which will add mainly to your basic attacks. Any thoughts?

Horgar
12-14-2007, 03:00 PM
The Brutalizer. It has 21 Expertise, or 5.3% chance
A: that's 21 expertise RATING which is 5.3 expertise skill. The thottbot display is incorrect. It comes out to ~1.33% reduced dodge/parry. since you're only attacking things from behind as fury it's really just -1.33% dodge which is about the same as 1.33% +hit.

B: if you have a far superior weapon for OH use it. The difference in dmg from WW is minimal since it is normalized. Normalization evens out dmg the more buffed you are (higher % of your dmg comes from AP). I did the math and self-buffed using 1.6 speed weap ~80dps in oh vs 2.6 caused a difference in your overall dps from WW to be about 0.5-0.7% or something like that. Not even a whole percent of dps increase so for the most part just use the better weapon (given 2 equally statted weapons take the slower one).

Alchamire
12-14-2007, 03:08 PM
So how many Expertise Rating does it take per 1 Expertise? And thank you for clearing that up. I would not agree that its the same as Hit though. From the way I look at it, once you have 9% +Hit, stacking hit from there only increases your auto attacks, while stacking Expertise helps your auto and specials. Correct?

GarrettJaxx
12-15-2007, 08:38 AM
Meeks - thanks man for the pointers in this guide. I'm back and respecced with 1/2 WW and dropped Execute and 1 pt in DW so I could get 2 pts in Wep Mastery. Lemme tell you the rotation is definitely noticed.

Now I have to hope for weapon upgrades and badges to improve my gear overall, and we're off to the races. Thanks again. :D

Horgar
12-15-2007, 10:17 AM
From the way I look at it, once you have 9% +Hit, stacking hit from there only increases your auto attacks

That's the general consensus that I've read but I'm confused. It doesn't make sense with the attack table to me. If on yellow attacks the base miss rate on a boss is 9%, and you push miss off the table. Wouldn't more +hit continue to push the next thing off the table? (which should be dodge from the way I understand it).

Or does +hit *only* reduce miss and not affect the whole table even though it shows on one end of the table in the threads on crushing? I don't really have the +hit to test this. Someone would need 15% tohit on a boss that is established to have less than 6% dodge and a 9% base yellow miss rate to be sure.

Meeks
12-15-2007, 11:04 AM
Hit only effects miss.

Expertise effect dodges and parry.

Nothing effects glancing blows(anymore).

Horgar
12-15-2007, 10:00 PM
OK just came back to say I found what meeks just said on wowwiki. The way the combat table was abbreviated is what confused me. So... taking yellow misses off the table being a priority over anything else I guess taking yellow dodges off would be the next one.

Horgar
12-15-2007, 10:01 PM
OK just came back to say I found what meeks just said on wowwiki. The way the combat table was abbreviated is what confused me. So... taking yellow misses off the table being a priority over anything else I guess taking yellow dodges off would be the next one via expertise (or getting close maybe... once they fix defiance a hybrid fury/prot will get that extra 6 expertise. mmm impale vs defiance for dps?

Impale only improves the crits of yellow attacks right? -1.5% dodge vs +20% crit bonus on yellow attacks (aka 120% dmg bonus for a 220% total vs 200% total... overall 10% gain in the dmg of the attack).

If 50% of your dps is white and 50% is yellow -and you have 30% crit and you figure what a 10% bonus to that portion is .5 * .3 * .1 = 1.5% which works out about the same as expertise -1.5% dodge? So if 55% of your dps is white your crit has to be 33% to keep impale at ~1.5% bonus to overall dps. It's close. Looks like impale wins (and that's not adding deep wounds dps).


Just glancing at the WWS out there it looks like the -threat is letting fury wars spam a lot more heroic strike... that pushes impale up to above 1.5% bonus to dps.

Meeks
12-17-2007, 07:52 AM
This is not exactly true. Expertise has the same item budget cost achieve -1% dodge AND -1% parry as hit does for +1% to hit.

This means that even if you are behind the mob expertise will give you +1% chance for white and yellow attacks to land while hit would give only a 1% chacne for a white attack to land.

Expertise is still effective if for non tanks. The problem leis in the fact that expertise is basically impossible to get for a warrior without giving up too much in the exchange.

Wolvynskye
12-18-2007, 05:05 PM
I have came to find that some of the information is pretty good. I do disagree with a few things, I don't think one should stack hit gems, but hit is just as important as AP and Crit. Here is my WWS report from a lurker kill this past weekend

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/smy5v2xuyih2a?s=4043-4566)

I have tried a lot of stuff and I find myself working all the time, but at my level in raiding just getting inside of SSC, pushing 1k dps isn't that bad on a boss fight where you can't sweeping strikes and "cheat" dps chart, like I get on trash usually pushing 1200 dps at times. Very informative thou and I definately will look at some of these tips. I know I need to get some IA gear that will push dps even more.

Cheers

wolvy

fastidius
12-19-2007, 07:22 AM
Wolvy just had a look at your spec and i noticed you have 2 whirlwind and only 4 flurry.....any reasoning? most seem to go 1 WW 5 Flurry...

Meeks
12-19-2007, 07:39 AM
Wolvy just had a look at your spec and i noticed you have 2 whirlwind and only 4 flurry.....any reasoning? most seem to go 1 WW 5 Flurry...

Yeah you only need 1 point in whirlwind to make it fit your rotation and you need 5/5 flurry.

Meeks
12-19-2007, 08:24 AM
Copy pasted from an edit to the guide:

There is now a sight out there that has come a long way in terms of item evaluation. It is not 100% and it is probable that no site can ever be 100% for gear evaluation but it is currently the best out there. I monitor it now and then and send suggestions and the creater has been very good about adressing them.

The site is Maxdps.com

What makes the sight great is that it is easy to use and you put your current stats into sight and it revaluates every item based on your current stats. You can select what gear is available to you and search just those sections.

I strongly recomend this sight for getting an idea of how gear is rated for where you are right then.

Wolvynskye
12-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Wolvy just had a look at your spec and i noticed you have 2 whirlwind and only 4 flurry.....any reasoning? most seem to go 1 WW 5 Flurry...

My main job atm is doing AOE damage, we are doing ZA right now and the fights in there I am multitasking, so the extra 1 second on WW is helping me out on the situations, but yeah, I usually go 1 WW when doing 25 man raids.

As far as working WW into my rotation I am spamming BT - 2 sec WW then rotating 8, 10, 8, 10, 8, 10 rotations with WW, this is my normal spec atm, same with imp cleave i have, we have another warrior that has imp shouts and he keeps them up and I am using cleave to help do max damage, we have a pally tank that holds multiple mobs so I just fire away on trash.

Wolvynskye
12-20-2007, 11:41 PM
We ran some guildies through gruuls, latest stats from that, I tried cutting out some hit and added about 100 AP, little under 1k dps on the gruul fight. Just too much running away from cave in's and dps time cut from shatter, plus staying under 2nd aggro, ive died too many times on the gruul fight passing the OT.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/bp1iwob5fctvg?s=3356-3671)

GarrettJaxx
12-25-2007, 07:57 PM
Hi guys, anyone know where to point me for some creative (if any) DW Fury macros? Just curious, probably won't use many of em.

Hey Meeks, I've moved some gear around, found some, de-gemmed ... Currently at 1816 AP unbuffed, 186 hit rating, 300 armor penetration, but only 24.5 crit.

I'm thinking, since I'm running Gruul's from time to time, some ZA action, and Kara, that I don't want to lose more hit. But that crit (not so much for Kara) has to come up I'd think.

How's that interpretation of your balanced discussion so far guys, based on this thread? Any think I should sacrifice some AP for crit, or even gem so +8 crit?

Having a blast with the spec, of course, thanks to input from folks like you.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Darranna

fastidius
01-03-2008, 07:04 PM
So it looks like flurry/WW & Rampage bug is going to be around for another couple of months. It's really annoying how it was reported in the test realm pre 2.3 but now we have to wait past 2.3.4 to get a fix for it.

How much affect is it having on people?...i looked at my parses of late and figuree im losing about 15% flurry uptime with 34% crit.

GarrettJaxx
01-05-2008, 12:00 PM
Haven't noticed but my crit is deplorably low. In fact I wanted to post about this. I need help in my gear approach, at this point.

My hit rating is high, in one setup, at 214. I can reduce it significantly but keep it high at 189 or so when I cut out Romulo's Poison Vial in favor of Bladefist, for instance, to boost crit and AP (when activated) a bit.

But ... in general my crit is at 24.5% or so, and that just sux. My AP is up around 1800-1860 depending on trinkets, but when I'm at the 214 hit setup, it's low around 1760, and crit falls to 23.75 or so.

(I have to write all this out to you, of course, because the damned armory is busted for me "Character Refresh" message going on 2 straight weeks sigh).

I'm wielding Spiteblade (2.7 and 87.6 dps) and Melchazeen (1.8 and 91.1 dps). And I'm getting smoked in damage, I means SMOKED by enhancement shammys with Fool's bane and Bladefist. I also have 450 ArP atm. I just don't get it.

Based on Meeks' guide, I'm thinking I should do the following:
1) kick the hit rating down to 189 and blow off Romulo's for now, use that trinket slot for the AP boost and constant crit Bladefist's Breath (dont have Hourglass yet but I have Abacus, so if haste more important I could use that and its' +62 AP)
2) focus on AP, AP, AP and really don't worry too much about crit beyond 25% (or is this stupid?)

Could really use some guidance. What do you guys think? I don't mind not being 'first in dps' but getting SMOKED by Shammys in Kara? Granted nothing in there really bleeds so my dps overall is gimped a little, but ... ...

PS - I'm 17/44/0 with 4/5 DW (I'm in love with PH), and 1/2 WW, and 2/2 Wep Mastery (or whatever it's called, that reduces target dodge change by 2%).

Thanks in advance, sry for the long post, but with the armory down the extra info is sort of necessary, I'd think.

Meeks
01-06-2008, 03:30 PM
Where are you getting your armor pen from? If it is the badge gear what did you replace with them?

Armor penetration is the best scaling stat in end game. However this is not true at all until you are into BT.

At the stage you are currently at dropping ap and crit for armor pen can be disastrous. I would recommend looking into how you are getting your armor pen and what other options there are for those slots. Also go with the 190 hit and start running a lot of BM for the hourglass. I still use that and my guild is almost done with BT.

GarrettJaxx
01-06-2008, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't realized ArP isn't effective, really, pre-BT, though I'm not sure why. I am using the badge gear, the belt, wrists, and shoulders. The AP I have from them through strength is superior to the leathers I had for my belt and wrists. I figured that they're a better option. My chest is Adal, which is really a pain atm, no crit and alot of hit, and low AP, basically, being a blue. Im going for the PvP season 1 chest though which should help.

Meeks
01-06-2008, 10:38 PM
The reason that armor pen is not a great early stat is because it is something you need a lot of to be effective. The more armor pen you have the more each point provides in increased damage. That means every point of armor pen makes the armor pen you already have even better. It is a stat that gets its main use from having a lot of it. The draw back to this is that at lower values of armor pen it is very lack luster.

Also armor pen is going to be on you gear instead of another stat such as str/crit/hit. This means that going for armor pen early is going to several hurt your other stats more so then the benefit you gain.

If you were replacing bad gear that is one thing...but the dps warrior badge gear is pretty bad overall so keep that in mind. You should be looking to replace those pieces whenever you can.

Not sure how far you are in raid content but some good options form relatively early bosses would be bracers from lurker, tier 5 shoulder or hydross shoulders, and red belt of battle.

GarrettJaxx
01-07-2008, 08:13 AM
I see, thanks so much. One suggestion, take it or leave it, but in your fantastic guide, you may want to call out the fact that ArP really isn't valuable until it's stacked at higher levels, say perhaps 750-1000 ArP-ish?

I read your post and considered the lack of str/hit worth it for the badge gear. My mistake (<--noob, /point). But pre-Hyjal/BT, it seems it's best to stick with Kara leather drops, Gruuls plate (Martial Gauntlets) and whatever you might grab from ZA that seems to have str/ap/crit.

Knowing this now, I'll use the leather belt from Kara and maybe even the bracers of recklessness over the badge gear. I still love the badge shoulders, I think they're nifty (thought they look like crap). :mad:

I'll save my badges for Bloodlust Brooch and farm for that BM trinky, for sure, but in the meantime, I'm just working for a balance towards 2000 AP, 27%+ crit, and 180ish hit. :cool:

Weapon upgrades ... that's a whole nuther story, but that'll come with time, and a little luck (my Blacksmithing is in training, after dropping Alchemy).

Thanks much for the info. Think about editing the ArP area -- it's great info but led me astray. I'm sure I'm not the only nub reading it lol. :D

Wolvynskye
01-08-2008, 06:06 AM
Another trinket that is easy to obtain is the skettis exalted one (skyguard cross). That has to be the best grinding trinket I have in my inventory. It has massive crit way above bladefist. I don't raid with it, I use solorian's sapphire and dragonspine trophy, but if your lacking crit, hourglass and the skettis one will give you quite a bit of crit.

Do you use mongoose on your weapons? Mongoose is usually up the majority of the time when I raid, so extra crit helps out there. Consider agility enchants on your gloves, bracers, and boots because it sounds like your crit is way unbalanced compared to your other stats. I use the pit stalker cloak from mag as well, nice AP and crit. PvP gear offers nice crit as well, try mixing some of that in your setup. Gem sockets can help you, don't forget about smooth dawnstones.

You have to find a good balance, for instance, my current setup is 1934 attack power, 30.12% crit, 194 hit rating and I am doing around 800 dps on solo trash grinding, 1100 - 1200 dps 25 man trash, and around 950 - 1000 dps on boss fights. If I seem to lean to any other direction by sacrificing one stat over another, my dps gets lower, so I am currently trying to maintain this balance for myself. Cheers and gl to you!

wolvy

jpcesar
01-08-2008, 06:59 AM
I need some advices on maximizing my dps without making any huge upgrades but just play with the things I have.

with 2 pieces t4 bonus (2.60 slow offhand - fury):

Power: 1936
Hit : 209
Crit : 29.43&#37;

without 2 pieces t4 bonus (2.60 slow offhand - fury):

Power: 1934
Hit : 203
Crit : 29.85%

Power: 1942
Hit : 191
Crit : 30.19%


Power: 2004
Hit : 191
Crit : 28.96%

without 2 pieces t4 bonus (1.5 fast offhand - merciless s2):

Power: 1995
Hit: 181
Crit: 29.64%

what is better?

GarrettJaxx
01-08-2008, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the reply Wolvy ...


Another trinket that is easy to obtain is the skettis exalted one (skyguard cross). That has to be the best grinding trinket I have in my inventory. I have used it, and do use it often, but I'm still at that level where it impacts my hit rating, as it precludes me from having Romulo's up. Regardless, it's sweet. I picked up Bloodlust yesterday though and won't give that up. :p


Do you use mongoose on your weapons? ... Consider agility enchants on your gloves, bracers, and boots because it sounds like your crit is way unbalanced compared to your other stats. ... PvP gear offers nice crit as well, try mixing some of that in your setup. Gem sockets can help you, don't forget about smooth dawnstones. I don't have Mongoose, I have +20 str. And again, I'm at that place where my gear isn't yet ready for pure balance, and I need to pick one stat of the three (AP, crit, hit) to bump up. If I gem +8 crit, I lose some strength that's on my +4/+4s and if I put mongoose on both weps, again, I lose about 80 or so AP, but, interesting directions to think about. I had heard that double mongoose can be a weak move for Fury since the attack speed buff may eat up flurries but I never considered the +120 agility crit bonus. :rolleyes:


... my current setup is 1934 attack power, 30.12% crit, 194 hit rating I hate you. :mad: Just kidding, lol, thanks for the reply. Going for some PvP gear and the boots from Ogrila look nice, potentially for an upgrade, and I'll get there ... glad I moved away from the ArP though, I can push my stats up to closer to 1830 AP, 27.5% crit, and 160ish hit without them. Of course my survivability suffers a wee bit without plate, but "good things come to those who raid."

Kodiyeh
01-09-2008, 05:56 AM
Hi,

I'm an offtank for a Kara guild, so there are those boss fights where I slap on my Fury gear and spam Devastate and Heroic Strike to add what DPS I can to the raid. My question is, since I am mostly prot, I don't have some of the more essential talents to fury DPS, such as Flurry and Precision.

My question is, how can I maximize my DPS as prot spec in fury gear? Obviously, a higher amount of +hit is needed to reach the cap for yellow attacks, but I am assuming that once +9&#37; hit is gained through hit rating, the gem and enchant rules remain the same (mostly +str, with secondary emphasis on +crit).

In addition, is a fast offhand more beneficial for rage generation? Since I don't have Flurry, my offhand cannot possibly consume Flurry charges, and I always seem rage starved anyhow. A slow main hand is obviously the better choice (Drakefist Hammer atm, working on a Dragonmaw) for bigger Devastates, but I am thinking that though I lose a small amount of DPS from whirlwind, the rage gen from a faster offhand would be ideal.

On the subject of fast offhands, are daggers acceptable? If I recall, rage was normalised some time ago, and daggers generate less rage than say a 1h sword, axe or mace.

And another thing (though this question and the last one have sort of the same answer), when you switch to 2 fast weapons for max rage generation for Execute spam, are daggers recommended for this? Again, if daggers generate less rage from normalisation, then the answer is no :)

One more for the road: As an offtank, I don't get to roll on all the neat DPS gear and trinkets unless nobody else needs them (which is super rare). I was thinking for my trinket slots I could put down the money for Darkmoon Cards: Crusade (+6ap on each successful hit, stacking to 120ap) and Wrath (each time you don't crit you get 17 crit rating until you do). I don't know, but an almost passive 120ap and the ability to gear more for +str without losing out much on crit chance seems pretty sweet to me. Is it worth it?

Thank you for your time, and have a great day.

EDIT: Incorrect trinket info.

Brickhuase
01-09-2008, 08:22 AM
And another thing (though this question and the last one have sort of the same answer), when you switch to 2 fast weapons for max rage generation for Execute spam, are daggers recommended for this? Again, if daggers generate less rage from normalisation, then the answer is no :)



it's less a matter of type of weapon but the fastest highest dps weapons you have, for example my execute range is Mallet of the tides in main hand and malchazeen in off. You want to be executing every gcd, if your weapons that you have allow you to do that your winning at 1200 tps :D, hopefully your tanks dont get an aggro drop :P.(i'm good at hugging the ground in VR's last few % lol)

I would think prot dps is not going to be all that great no matter what and your hit rating is going to be fairly low so i would say slow/slow is out for you. With 2 slow weapons missing is pretty sux. As for a rotation i'm not sure on one that is goign to maximize dps, devestate x100000 with some WW's in there?

Norbi
01-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Hello,

Guys im new in this forum and need yours help i dont know what weapon is better to warior fury(pve)... My guild do kara all and we go to the eye do Void and ssc to Lurker... My warrior have 256hit rating,27crit and 1700ap unbuffed.. And have problem with weap to oh Blazeguard and Fool's Bane... what is better to my warr ??

pls help :D

GarrettJaxx
01-12-2008, 11:34 AM
Hello,

Guys im new in this forum and need yours help i dont know what weapon is better to warior fury(pve)... My guild do kara all and we go to the eye do Void and ssc to Lurker... My warrior have 256hit rating,27crit and 1700ap unbuffed.. And have problem with weap to oh Blazeguard and Fool's Bane... what is better to my warr ??

pls help :D

I can tell you something more important than your weapons, that I learned from this forum. Your hit rating at 256 is WAY to high. You're likely gimping your crit and/or AP with it. From what I've learned, once you're at it 200ish, work harder to stack your crit and AP.

As for your weapons, Fool's Bane has a higher crit potential, because it has a yellow socket (str/crit orange gem nice there) and crit on it's main stats. AP too. Feels like dropping Blazeguard and wielding FB in your offhand is smarter, but I don't know what's in your MH so it's all just a theoretical answer atm.

Still, MUCH more important ... DROP that hit in favor of more crit and AP.

Bingbang
01-13-2008, 09:27 AM
I'm wondering what stat i should be focussing on right now, and need some advice. Below is my armory link in berserker stance.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=B%C3%ADngbang (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=B&#37;C3%ADngbang)

GarrettJaxx
01-13-2008, 09:54 AM
I'm wondering what stat i should be focussing on right now, and need some advice. Below is my armory link in berserker stance.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=B%C3%ADngbang

Beats me. You have phenomenal gear. Not sure what the problem could be lol. I've read that Str and Crit become the key focus once you have enough unbuffed hit, which you certainly have at over 200. What's your ArP at?

Asheowyn
01-13-2008, 07:02 PM
handy guide, especially for little nubby alt warriors like me ;)

Bingbang
01-13-2008, 09:24 PM
Beats me. You have phenomenal gear. Not sure what the problem could be lol. I've read that Str and Crit become the key focus once you have enough unbuffed hit, which you certainly have at over 200. What's your ArP at?

Well with my current setup, I've only got 84 ArP. I do have an ArP set made up of mostly arena, badge and ZA gear, and the vidicator's ring. Gimps my AP and hit quite a bit though, but should bring my ArP to above 600ish I think.

Shipoopie
01-14-2008, 02:39 AM
I am using a MH that is 2.6 and an OH that is 1.8
Is it still recomended to put executioner on my MH and mongoose on my OH when my OH is faster?

Meeks
01-16-2008, 06:52 AM
Yes. Those enchants are PPM so the faster your weapon the lower the proc chance. They move in equal ratio. So if you double the attack speed your halve the proc rate.

That being said instant attacks are not calculated into this equation but they use the same proc chance that the PPM forumla creates. So if your wepaon is twice as slow it is twice as likely to proc on bloodthirst and WW.

Also you can proc weapon enchants from your main hand only on bloodthirst.

You will see a lot more procs from your main hand then a fast offhand.

Alkalindeath
01-22-2008, 01:19 AM
I'm sorry if you've already answered this but here's the deal, when the patch hit tried out Heartless in my offhand and s2 axe in my mainhand and tried it out for about two weeks and felt rage starved. I only have about 160 hit rating with a slow offhand. Went back to s2 fast offhand for now, but at what level of hit rating do you suggest I go back to a slow offhand. I'm not even sure if I should go back to a slow offhand at all, but as we're about to kill Kael I'd like some input. Also I'm the only DPS warrior in the guild, I hate MS/Slam spec, but do you suggest I take one for the team and go 2h for the good of the raid. Thanks in advance for the suggestions.

Alk

Dwarman
01-22-2008, 09:29 AM
Decap/Illhoof mace in MH, Malchazeen in OH. I seem to recall 1 sword in SSC that's an upgrade on Decap.

How about Decap MH Feledged Battleaxe OH?

Dwarman
01-22-2008, 10:15 AM
Being relatively new to the Fury build, can hardly call it DW anymore since the nerf, again GG on that one, I've been wondering on a few things after reading the posts on this site.

here's my current unbuffed stats now

1553 AP
30% crit rounded down
155 HR
9.3k HP

given my current gear, some upgrades comming soon, i had stacked hit gems to get to this point, given its relatively low, should i keep them, or replace with the STR gems. i worked the numbers on the maxdps site Meeks suggested, seemed to bring up my dps but only marginally, any ideas?

wise man say, "If indeed you are looking for fish, one should not climb a tree"

Meeks
01-22-2008, 10:18 AM
At your point it would be a waste of money regemming. Keep what you have and gem differntly as you upgrade.

Dwarman
01-22-2008, 10:22 AM
At your point it would be a waste of money regemming. Keep what you have and gem differntly as you upgrade.

Money is something to be spent :p more worried about whats more effective, generally spec back and forth between prot/fury at least 4 times a week, so thats not my main concern, and i know you said after 95 HR go with the gems you suggested, while still focusing on HR

GarrettJaxx
01-22-2008, 11:47 AM
Money is something to be spent :p more worried about whats more effective, generally spec back and forth between prot/fury at least 4 times a week, so thats not my main concern, and i know you said after 95 HR go with the gems you suggested, while still focusing on HR

OK I'm NOT an expert, but I've enjoyed contributing to this thread immensely. I'd take a long hard look at your stats, and ask yourself if your str is too low. Your AP scales your damage too, and it's still effectively only at 18XX w Battleshout up. Might be some str gems you could consider? Hit is low enough, per Meeks' point not only the waste of money, but also the fact that much lower and you may miss on your offhand a bit more than you'd like. Of course, your bloodthirst damage is my main point in commenting on adding some AP if you can. You can even bring your crit down, for some more AP. The Bloodlust Brooch (badge reward), if you're not using it already is an awesome trinket, which can also pop your AP on a 2 minute cooldown to 2-something (can't recall atm). Romulo's poison vial in Kara would add alot of hit which would let you replace some hit gems down the road, too, that might be a good one to go for. My guess is you may be using alot of PvP gear? I say this 'cause your health's not bad, and your crit is high, but hit is low. All theory ... but that's the name of this forum-site right?! Anyway, the PvP gear is great for crit, but those trinkets are worth focusing on badge- or kara-wise.

Meanwhile, I just upgraded my mainhand Spiteblade (2.7sec, 87.6 dps) w the 91.2 Gladiator's Slicer (http://thottbot.com/i28295) sword. I'm not a huge pvper but I got the work done to upgrade. You probably all have better lmao. I'm pretty psyched because I wield that and Fool's Bane with +10 expertise and Weapon Mastery, so I feel like I've cut dodges down a bit. Hurrah for a long weekend!

Dwarman
01-22-2008, 04:06 PM
After doing alot of thinking and number crunching came up with a way to change up my gear and get my AP up without sacrificing HR, new stats unbuffed

1632 AP
155 HR
28.76 Crit

Realizing i upped my AP at the cost of my crit, easy enough to buff up food, pot and using sharpening stones to keep it adequate, ran a few runs with new setup and was able to bring my dps at the end of the run up by what i consider to be a worthwhile amount, want to say thanks to everyone for posting alot of great information on this site, not like a normal forums, and i really enjoyed learning different things from everyone's style, untill next time, take it easy

Oreox
01-22-2008, 04:12 PM
I have a trinket question.

Currently I am using Solarians sapphire and the hourglass. I have a storms deck which I could turn in for a wrath card.

My stats are AP 1808, Hit 164, Crit 32.79. This is without any buffs - not even shout up. Raid buffed I sit at 2800 Ap and 40% crit. (popped to 3378 AP with procs :D).

So my question is would the wrath card do me any good? I would have to lose either the hourglass proc - 300 Ap for 10 secs on crit, or the sapphire - 30 stam and 70AP to my party. I crit a lot now anyway so it seems sort of a waste. Any thoughts from someone who has used this card?

I have been a MT prot warrior for 3 years, but we just broke into Hyjal/BT and need less prot warriors so I changed over. So far I am having a blast. Thanks for the thread, it really helped me get the basics down.

veger69
01-24-2008, 03:48 PM
I have came to find that some of the information is pretty good. I do disagree with a few things, I don't think one should stack hit gems, but hit is just as important as AP and Crit. Here is my WWS report from a lurker kill this past weekend

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/smy5v2xuyih2a?s=4043-4566)

I have tried a lot of stuff and I find myself working all the time, but at my level in raiding just getting inside of SSC, pushing 1k dps isn't that bad on a boss fight where you can't sweeping strikes and "cheat" dps chart, like I get on trash usually pushing 1200 dps at times. Very informative thou and I definately will look at some of these tips. I know I need to get some IA gear that will push dps even more.

Cheers

wolvy

We have similar stats wolvy
attk pwr 1955 in zerker, 174 hit, 420 ARP, 32.31 crit
You can get very good results with less hit. Here is my last Lurker fight

WWS Lurker (http://wowwebstats.com/ziwynxeigphxy?s=3308-3687)

Meeks
01-25-2008, 06:31 AM
I have a trinket question.

Currently I am using Solarians sapphire and the hourglass. I have a storms deck which I could turn in for a wrath card.

My stats are AP 1808, Hit 164, Crit 32.79. This is without any buffs - not even shout up. Raid buffed I sit at 2800 Ap and 40% crit. (popped to 3378 AP with procs :D).

So my question is would the wrath card do me any good? I would have to lose either the hourglass proc - 300 Ap for 10 secs on crit, or the sapphire - 30 stam and 70AP to my party. I crit a lot now anyway so it seems sort of a waste. Any thoughts from someone who has used this card?

I have been a MT prot warrior for 3 years, but we just broke into Hyjal/BT and need less prot warriors so I changed over. So far I am having a blast. Thanks for the thread, it really helped me get the basics down.

I would keep the saphire and the hourglass for now. I still use the hourglass myself and it is a great trinket for those whose guilds never saw more then 1 tsunami talisman and gave the one to a rogue who does not even use it anymore.

Alkalindeath
01-25-2008, 01:17 PM
I'm sorry if you've already answered this but here's the deal, when the patch hit tried out Heartless in my offhand and s2 axe in my mainhand and tried it out for about two weeks and felt rage starved. I only have about 160 hit rating with a slow offhand. Went back to s2 fast offhand for now, but at what level of hit rating do you suggest I go back to a slow offhand. I'm not even sure if I should go back to a slow offhand at all, but as we're about to kill Kael I'd like some input. Also I'm the only DPS warrior in the guild, I hate MS/Slam spec, but do you suggest I take one for the team and go 2h for the good of the raid. Thanks in advance for the suggestions.

Alk

skdal
01-25-2008, 01:19 PM
I'm sorry if you've already answered this but here's the deal, when the patch hit tried out Heartless in my offhand and s2 axe in my mainhand and tried it out for about two weeks and felt rage starved. I only have about 160 hit rating with a slow offhand. Went back to s2 fast offhand for now, but at what level of hit rating do you suggest I go back to a slow offhand. I'm not even sure if I should go back to a slow offhand at all, but as we're about to kill Kael I'd like some input. Also I'm the only DPS warrior in the guild, I hate MS/Slam spec, but do you suggest I take one for the team and go 2h for the good of the raid. Thanks in advance for the suggestions.

Alk

If your guild has a strong melee dps group, I would suggesting going with a 2h/imp slam build. Especially if you are about to enter T6 content where you can pick up a lot of amazing 2h gear.

Alkalindeath
01-25-2008, 01:37 PM
Our melee group is the strongest part of the guild so yea.

Bonerot
01-26-2008, 09:42 AM
What MH enchant for a newer fury warrior (just switched from prot). One with some gear from kara/heroics/gl level. I don't have any armor reducing at all at the moment.

I've got the s1 gladiator OH'd with potency and I'm looking to enchant my decapitator.

Looks like Armory is working again http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eonar&n=bonerot

I'm thinking it's going to be either potency or mongose. I saw that the guide suggests executioner but then later says not to get armor reducing until you can get a lot.

Kilgorin
01-27-2008, 10:43 PM
What MH enchant for a newer fury warrior (just switched from prot). One with some gear from kara/heroics/gl level. I don't have any armor reducing at all at the moment.

I've got the s1 gladiator OH'd with potency and I'm looking to enchant my decapitator.

Looks like Armory is working again http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eonar&n=bonerot

I'm thinking it's going to be either potency or mongose. I saw that the guide suggests executioner but then later says not to get armor reducing until you can get a lot.

For a MH weapon I'd say your options are Potency or Executioner. For OH Potency or Mongoose. As for armor penetration, the guide states that you WANT to get Arm Pen, but you don't want to get it too early when you can't support it with high AP/hit/crit.

I don't know if there is a minimum for AP/hit/crit that you want to aim for before starting to stack Arm Pen, but Executioner can give you high Arm Pen on proc, without having to sacrafice elsewhere.

GarrettJaxx
01-28-2008, 05:03 PM
I had thought that it's the amount of Armor Penetration that's most important - anyone with 1800+ AP, 150+ hit, and 28&#37;+ crit should do well with the right amount of stacked ArP. But that amount is closer to 700 and 800, not 300 or 400, as I've seen some posts suggesting people are hovering around (not including Executioner procs, of course).

Drgoodtime
01-31-2008, 03:21 AM
Firstly I like to say thank you so much for putting together this guide. It's pretty much been my bread and butter to how I play.

I need some suggestions on when it is ok to start taking out items with hit and replacing them in the meantime with items that do not have any. For example, I have Dory's Embrace but I'm scared to lose some hit rating. Opinions?

At the moment, our guild has been progressing quite nicely with TK and SSC almost cleared in a matter of weeks. We now are on Vashj and Kael.

If you look at my stats, are there things I should try to get more of (example in proportion to my AP, my crit should be roughly xx). Are there obtainable items that won't come from brand new content you see as an upgrade? I've been trying to get Ring of a Thousand Marks for ages and it just won't drop, I've given up on it :P

Many of my guild members have been suggesting to replace my current helm with the S3 one. How powerful is ArP in response to your other stats?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Here is my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&n=Drgoodtime

Meeks
01-31-2008, 04:37 AM
Firstly I like to say thank you so much for putting together this guide. It's pretty much been my bread and butter to how I play.

I need some suggestions on when it is ok to start taking out items with hit and replacing them in the meantime with items that do not have any. For example, I have Dory's Embrace but I'm scared to lose some hit rating. Opinions?

At the moment, our guild has been progressing quite nicely with TK and SSC almost cleared in a matter of weeks. We now are on Vashj and Kael.

If you look at my stats, are there things I should try to get more of (example in proportion to my AP, my crit should be roughly xx). Are there obtainable items that won't come from brand new content you see as an upgrade? I've been trying to get Ring of a Thousand Marks for ages and it just won't drop, I've given up on it :P

Many of my guild members have been suggesting to replace my current helm with the S3 one. How powerful is ArP in response to your other stats?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Here is my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&n=Drgoodtime

The season three helm is a very good choice. It is an incredible helm and I would use it until you get to the Illidari Council in Black Temple. I would also keep doing prince for that ring...I used my Ring of the Thousand Marks until i got Illidan's Signet Ring.

Other then that the most obvious upgrades for you would be getting tier 5 shoulders, lurker bracers, and either gruul or tier 5 gloves. The leather boots from heroic badges would be a solid upgrade too.

Drgoodtime
01-31-2008, 01:09 PM
Thank you Meeks for the quick response.

Would getting the Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots from badges allow me to get rid of my cloak and use Dory's then? The next boots I had in mind were either the Skullshatter Warboots. Does my hit need work right now? Moreover, how do the Ripfiend Shoulderplates from Kazzak compare to T5? Good to know about that ring, thanks.

How are my current stats and their distribution for the bosses we are fighting? Should I have more of something and ease up on other things?

How does the S3 helm compare to T5 helm though? Eventually we will be downing these bosses and once the tanks get theirs, the rest of the raid can start upgrading.

Thanks in Advance

Kazeyonoma
01-31-2008, 02:53 PM
What cloak are you currently using? Dory's is a win win win cloak, there's hardly anything wrong with it as far as I know.

Drgoodtime
01-31-2008, 04:55 PM
Drape of the Dark Reavers

Edorn
02-01-2008, 01:55 PM
does anyone have a numbers based reason for using ex on a main hand and mongoose on the offhand? i've read so many that go both ways but none with a real reason for one over the other

GarrettJaxx
02-03-2008, 11:08 AM
does anyone have a numbers based reason for using ex on a main hand and mongoose on the offhand? i've read so many that go both ways but none with a real reason for one over the other

I do not. However, why would you need numbers ... consider this.

Executioner procs and Mongoose procs are based on per minute constants - so within one minute they will proc x times. Always.

Whether you hit or miss, and miss a proc, isn't important. If you mis a proc once, you'll surely hit it a second time within the one-minute proc limit.

So unless your hit is drastically low, or your weapons are drastically slow (which for DW Fury isn't tenable, really), I'm not sure I understand why one hand over the other matters. The damage is normalized across your DPS, as is the haste and crit from both chants.

Now, as I said, I have no math. I'm not a math-based theorycrafter. I could be way off on how these ppms work and how chants work, if so, please someone correct me so I learn too.

Thanks!

Balen
02-04-2008, 04:13 AM
I'm not sure if this is where I should ask this, but you guys seem to know really well what you're talking about and have a lot of good answers, so here goes.

I'm in a kara guild atm and all my guildies have been getting really nice gear outta the place. I however have very few drops from there that increase my stats very much besides leather which I have picked up when it drops. This has dropped my rank in dps from before getting top 3 easily to not top 3 now.

How well would the badge Plate gear do to gearing myself up to get me outta kara range stats? Is it worth the loss of crit? It all looks to contain no crit but a ton of hit and some ArP. Or should I pick up the leather badge gear? Or should I go into ZA or w/e would be after kara being carried a bit in dps by the casters?

Eldyr
02-04-2008, 09:02 AM
Hello Meeks and every1,

1st of all,thx for the great guild you have made, it helped me - and i know for sure on a lot of us also - to improve her/his dps in raids.

I've some questions concerning Armor penetration.
Our guild is at 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, will start Vashj on next week.
Here is my current raiding gear: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormreaver&n=Eldyr

I'm planning to switch 3 them, the Cloak of Darkness for Dory's embrace, the Red Belt of Battle for Chain of Unleashed Rage and the Bracers of Eradication for Eternium rage-shackles to improve my Armor penetration.
If i calculated right, i would loose 17 Str, 17 hit and 52 crit rate, but would earn 416 Apr, but i got the s3 chest, so it would be 500 Apr totally.
I think the str and hit rate loss isnt that bad, the crit is, but i will take the 1st Tsunami from Leo if it drops, which reduces the loss to 14 crit.

What do u think, is the switch worth it or not?
If any1 else has any idea about it, i would appreciate it.

Thx in advance

Eldyr

teamstussy
02-05-2008, 12:22 PM
First off great guide, I've learned a lot from this. Secondly, the community here is awesome as well.

I'm looking for some tips to increase my dps. This toon is only about 4 weeks into 70 so gear advice would be helpful as well. As far as gear I'm targeting in the near future would be S3 Helm / Chest, Tabi Boots, Master Assassin / Gruuls Bracers, Skulkers Greaves, Bloodthirsters Wargreaves, T5 shoulders and S2 OH. Trinket wise would be Hourglass (22 runs and counting :( ) and bloodlust brooch or blessings deck. I guess what I'm looking for is what I should focus on first to give me the most bang for the buck dps upgrade. I have access to any piece in kara, plus a legit roll off on Gruul, VR and solarian once we down her. Currently have 1550 arena points banked and getting about 340 Are there any pieces at my progression level that I've missed and would be an upgrade? We have VR down and working on Solarian.

Currently, I can do 650 max on a gruul / vr fight using the rotation listed in the guide and HS as necessary which I feel is horribly low. The only difference would be I'm not pulling out two fast weapons for Execute spam.

Sorry for the information overload, but it's been really frustrating of late.

Here's the armory link ( Battle Stance)

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thrall&n=Halp



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Halp

veger69
02-07-2008, 10:07 AM
Hello Meeks and every1,

1st of all,thx for the great guild you have made, it helped me - and i know for sure on a lot of us also - to improve her/his dps in raids.

I've some questions concerning Armor penetration.
Our guild is at 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, will start Vashj on next week.
Here is my current raiding gear: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormreaver&n=Eldyr

I'm planning to switch 3 them, the Cloak of Darkness for Dory's embrace, the Red Belt of Battle for Chain of Unleashed Rage and the Bracers of Eradication for Eternium rage-shackles to improve my Armor penetration.
If i calculated right, i would loose 17 Str, 17 hit and 52 crit rate, but would earn 416 Apr, but i got the s3 chest, so it would be 500 Apr totally.
I think the str and hit rate loss isnt that bad, the crit is, but i will take the 1st Tsunami from Leo if it drops, which reduces the loss to 14 crit.

What do u think, is the switch worth it or not?
If any1 else has any idea about it, i would appreciate it.

Thx in advance

Eldyr

Yes on dory's, no on bracer's. you won't replace those ever unless you go with the leather deadlycuffs off Rage winterchill. NO on belt, red belt of battle is end game unless you get belt of one hundred deaths off Vashj. Build your arp with Season Three ring instead of garona's the bow of the last boss in ZA and get the Season 3 helm. Pick up Ninja's Tabi boots from badge gear and blood lust broach from badges. That should put you close to 500 arp. while maintaining decent hit and is very close to my gear set I'm doing 1400 dps on Tide walker and 1600 on Nin'jentus

GarrettJaxx
02-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Hi - been a bit since I've posted, and I've made some nice upgrades. I'm still bummed though, my dps is teetering on the side of being quite impressive I think, but something's just ... off. :(

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Darranna

Key stats in Zerk:
> AP 1776 unbuffed
> Hit 150 (potential to go to 188 but that nerfs my crit down to 27% from 29% with the Romulo's Trink>
> Crit 29%

I feel like my AP is deplorably low. :(

I almost feel like I was doing a hella lot more dps when I had it at like 1850 but suffered with 26% or so crit. I know I need to go PvP and get some Glad's, but I almost feel dependent on my existing gear as it stands, don't know what I'd replace. Legs probably ...

Cloak - sure, it's nasty (Inciter's) but I'll get Dory's with my next badge splurge. I'm bummed, I splurged on Amani Death Mask 2 weeks ago and Fel Steel dropped for me last night, ah well.

So the question is ... is the 'must have 27%+ crit' worth dropping a little when your unbufffed AP is where mine is at? If so, would I do better with Abacus of Violent Odds (in the bank) to give a shot more of AP along with the haste increase (I can sort of 'fake some flurry' if my crits arent putting it up enough). :cool:

Or is the key reason to have crit purely a damage-table math thing, and a double-the-white-damage thing, and so I need to keep it as a priority at this point, over AP and over hit?

I hope my questions are clear enough. Perhaps I have all the answers here and just was looking for someone else to weigh in and confirm ... I was going to number em but I'm at work and a bunch of suits are about to start a meeting with me! :eek:

Dwarman
02-08-2008, 04:45 AM
Hey Garrett, long while since ive posted as well, while im no expert myself, i have been learning some things,

unbuffed stats zerkers

AP- 1744
Crit-28.17
Hit-203

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Bodan

As for your question to crit chance, yea i'd keep it at around 28+ if possible, that allows your deep wounds to stay up on pretty much any boss fairly consistantly which only does good things for your dps with impale maxed, 20% to your crit strike damage is huge, thats mainly the reason you want your crit at that magic number, as well as pulling off the impressive dual crits from WW as well as your other attacks.

As for the abbacus, im not sold on it, i prefer the bloodlust/Hourglass over it by far, takes a bit for it to drop but well worth the efforts as it helps out your crit and the AP buff on it is quite nice even with the hidden CD on it, and with the hourglass, another good reason to keep your crit at the magic number, with the AP buff on crit hit.

What i would shoot for is picking up the Ninja Tabi boots from the badge vendor, they would be a very nice upgrade for you, and what i did is replace my Vanquishers with the midnight leggings from heroic Slave pens, stacked with 8str gems you gain about 20 AP but also pick up some decent hit and crit, not a huge upgrade but worth it in my opinion, some laugh at the fact i wear some leather peices, upgraded Mask of the Lynx lord with S3 helm this week, but whats armor value vs stat benefits when your meatshield is doin the tankin.

Well, hope this helped a little, and if anyone has some more knowledgeable input, by all means correct me :D, untill next time, take it easy and enjoy.

Bananasmasht
02-08-2008, 07:28 AM
I'd hate to ask this, but if anyone can let me know what I should upgrade next, (Im 5 badges from the Badges Belt of Unleashed Rage. and around 300 Arena points from the Season three Chest. After that what should I go for next (Using heroic's Kara Badges or Arena/BG) because Im kinda stumped. any Suggestions would be appreciated.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Bananasmasht

GarrettJaxx
02-09-2008, 08:44 AM
As for your question to crit chance, yea i'd keep it at around 28+ if possible, that allows your deep wounds to stay up on pretty much any boss fairly consistantly which only does good things for your dps with impale maxed, 20% to your crit strike damage is huge, thats mainly the reason you want your crit at that magic number, as well as pulling off the impressive dual crits from WW as well as your other attacks. ...

What i would shoot for is picking up the Ninja Tabi boots from the badge vendor, they would be a very nice upgrade for you

Hi thanks for the advice. :)

I agree to keep my crit up, but I prefer not to have too many leathers because they nerf my strength (usually don't have strength on them). As for Abacus, ya I haven't relaly used it in a long time. I have the Skyguard Cross on now, w BL brooch, and that crit helps. I think I just need to keep running and getting geared up.

Avandar
02-09-2008, 11:40 AM
Hi!

I'm an alt so many of my options are limited. At the moment, I have access to kara gear and the gear I can buy with badges.

So, last night we kill Prince and I get a second Decapitator. So I am now DW them. I also have the pvp off hand axe, 1.5 speed. I was curious, before I splurge on an enchant on it, has it been decided that slow/slow is the way to go now? I don't seem to be rage starved on boss fights.

Current stats:

AP: 1551
Hit: 172
Crit: 27.62

Normally I eat a spicy talbuk steak before raids so I have 192 hit on raids.

Armory Link:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Greymane&n=Avandar

My next big upgrade will be the chain of unleashed rage.

So, go with mongoose on my new decapitator or stick with the fast OH from pvp? That's the question.

Avandar

GarrettJaxx
02-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Hi!

I'm an alt so many of my options are limited. At the moment, I have access to kara gear and the gear I can buy with badges.

So, last night we kill Prince and I get a second Decapitator. So I am now DW them. I also have the pvp off hand axe, 1.5 speed. I was curious, before I splurge on an enchant on it, has it been decided that slow/slow is the way to go now? I don't seem to be rage starved on boss fights.

I'd try to enchant them both with Mongoose maybe, and keep them both up the whole time. Major crit benefit, and your hit's just fine at 192 buffed.

Or you can get Executioner maybe? If you have the cash/mats. If you can farm badges and hook up w the Badge gear you'll get some nice additional trinks and gear - mind you it's not as good as some PvP and certainly most high-end raid gear beats it but you can get some nice chants and such on em too. I'd get your AP up though, your BT is probably not hitting for much, and it's a key component to your rotation (or should be).

GarrettJaxx
02-09-2008, 04:08 PM
Hi!

I'm an alt so many of my options are limited. At the moment, I have access to kara gear and the gear I can buy with badges.

So, last night we kill Prince and I get a second Decapitator. So I am now DW them. I also have the pvp off hand axe, 1.5 speed. I was curious, before I splurge on an enchant on it, has it been decided that slow/slow is the way to go now? I don't seem to be rage starved on boss fights.

I'd try to enchant them both with Mongoose maybe, and keep them both up the whole time. Major crit benefit, and your hit's just fine at 192 buffed. Or, give a Potency chant to one of your Axes - boost the AP that way.

Or you can get Executioner maybe? If you have the cash/mats. If you can farm badges and hook up w the Badge gear you'll get some nice additional trinks and gear - mind you it's not as good as some PvP and certainly most high-end raid gear beats it but you can get some nice chants and such on em too. I'd get your AP up though, your BT is probably not hitting for much, and it's a key component to your rotation (or should be).

Avandar
02-09-2008, 07:10 PM
I'd try to enchant them both with Mongoose maybe, and keep them both up the whole time. Major crit benefit, and your hit's just fine at 192 buffed. Or, give a Potency chant to one of your Axes - boost the AP that way.

Or you can get Executioner maybe? If you have the cash/mats. If you can farm badges and hook up w the Badge gear you'll get some nice additional trinks and gear - mind you it's not as good as some PvP and certainly most high-end raid gear beats it but you can get some nice chants and such on em too. I'd get your AP up though, your BT is probably not hitting for much, and it's a key component to your rotation (or should be).

Sorry, should have been clearer, I have executioner on my MH Decapitator, was wondering what to put on my second OR, would it be better to us a fast OH?

Kilgorin
02-09-2008, 10:24 PM
Sorry, should have been clearer, I have executioner on my MH Decapitator, was wondering what to put on my second OR, would it be better to us a fast OH?

Read this and typed out a response, reread it and changing my post. If you have Ex on 1, go with Potency prolly to get your AP up. It's what I have on my OH Fool's Bane with Ex on my MH Spiteblade. AP is real key to playing Fury so do what you can to get your AP up. That's my opinion.

dealin
02-10-2008, 04:33 AM
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3502110035011052012122005320032500000 00000000000000000000000000000)

this is my currant build and i was told since i duel weld i should concentrate more points in fury i just dont know where any help in this subject will be great i would like to do more dps than im doing

Kilgorin
02-10-2008, 12:40 PM
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3502110035011052012122005320032500000 00000000000000000000000000000)

this is my currant build and i was told since i duel weld i should concentrate more points in fury i just dont know where any help in this subject will be great i would like to do more dps than im doing

Yeah if you do Fury, the standard build is 17 arms and 44 Fury. Really only go 17 into Arms to get the Impale for +20&#37; crit damage.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500030130200000000000005050005505012 05311510000000000000000000000)

I'd say that's the standard Fury build, give or take a few points somewhere.

Avandar
02-10-2008, 08:46 PM
Read this and typed out a response, reread it and changing my post. If you have Ex on 1, go with Potency prolly to get your AP up. It's what I have on my OH Fool's Bane with Ex on my MH Spiteblade. AP is real key to playing Fury so do what you can to get your AP up. That's my opinion.

:) Oh well, I went with mongoose on the OH decapitator.


Second question!

Has the debate over slow OH vs fast OH been resolved? And if so, in whoes favor?

Kilgorin
02-10-2008, 10:49 PM
I believe the way WW is now, that it's better to go with 2 slow weapons. However if you have rage gen problems that don't allow you to get BT and WW on their CDs then you could do a fast OH for better rage gen. I think most people say that they can get a little more out of 2 slow weaps then 2 fast weaps or a slow and a fast.

Dwarman
02-11-2008, 06:19 PM
So i still havent gone mace or axe smithing yet, trying to decide before i commit which of the two is best for our build, is the chance on hit with the Dragonstrike better then the solid stats on the axe?

To me it seems the mace is best for a Rogue while the axe is best for warriors having the main stats we tend to focus on, AP and Crit but i just dont know enough yet to have it all laid out, any advice?

Filup
02-12-2008, 02:01 PM
Ok I am a warrior in ssc/tk. I have really low hit rating, I am wondering if I should stack more hit in exchange for other stats.

I use Maxdps.com for most of my info on gear. Even at the low hit rating i have it still shows crit/ap/ignore armor as being better stats.

I feel like my slow off hand is missing too much but it’s been hard for me to get some good wwstats reads with diff hit ratings and a faster offhand. I have even thought about getting the Merciless Glads Off hand for cheap.

Current Stats w/ Battle shout in zerk stance.
2380ap
32.71&#37; crit
118 hit rating
20 Haste
426 Ignore Armor

Please any info would be helpful. Also here is my armory page

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Skullcrusher&n=Filup

If you have any suggestions they would be appreciated.

Kilgorin
02-13-2008, 02:12 AM
Ok I am a warrior in ssc/tk. I have really low hit rating, I am wondering if I should stack more hit in exchange for other stats.

I use Maxdps.com for most of my info on gear. Even at the low hit rating i have it still shows crit/ap/ignore armor as being better stats.

I feel like my slow off hand is missing too much but itís been hard for me to get some good wwstats reads with diff hit ratings and a faster offhand. I have even thought about getting the Merciless Glads Off hand for cheap.

Current Stats w/ Battle shout in zerk stance.
2380ap
32.71% crit
118 hit rating
20 Haste
426 Ignore Armor

Please any info would be helpful. Also here is my armory page

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Skullcrusher&n=Filup)

If you have any suggestions they would be appreciated.


K. Looking at your gear I'd say you could probably go with the heroics gloves, they'll give you 25 hit rating, and also the Exalted Violet Eye ring for another 25. That's probably the best thing you can do without having to gem for hit, which of course is not recommended. Aside from maybe trying to gather up t5 gear which I think is VERY good for fury.

GarrettJaxx
02-14-2008, 11:12 AM
DW and Expertise/Weapon Mastery question here ...

When I DW a mace and sword I get racial bonuses for both (human) which adds to my expertise, stacking with my 2 pts in Weapon Mastery to prevent dodge.

But when I DW two swords, I get only half the Expertise rating (5 vs. 10).

I think this is broken - I don't see why in theorycraft DW two of the same weapons would not equal (or surpass?) the value of two different weapons. I'd consider myself an expert with 2 blades as easily as w a blade and a blunt.

Wondering if anyone has ever seen a blue comment on this, or if anyone cares?

Kazeyonoma
02-14-2008, 11:21 AM
its working as intended, it only gives 1 bonus if you have at least 1 of the weapon types. If anything you should only get it based on 1 of them not both. Currently humans with both mace/swords can get 5 more expertise than orcs can since we only have 1 weapon specialization. but that's another argument all together. =P

GarrettJaxx
02-14-2008, 01:59 PM
its working as intended, it only gives 1 bonus if you have at least 1 of the weapon types. If anything you should only get it based on 1 of them not both. Currently humans with both mace/swords can get 5 more expertise than orcs can since we only have 1 weapon specialization. but that's another argument all together. =P

Thx - they're so bad at catching this stuff.

vicutu
02-15-2008, 06:54 AM
hi guys, been a fan of this guide for a long time. I'm fury since i got dual-wield and love it. We downed Gruul (our first) last week and i had a ~650 dps at gruul kill fight. Is it normal? Can i do more? I use the BT-WW-BT...rotation.

this is my armory profile: http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Emerald&#37;20Dream&n=Vogelsang (zerk stance on)
my main question is - is this dps normal for my gear (got the upgrades list)

GarrettJaxx
02-15-2008, 09:49 PM
650 is pretty good against Gruul.

Dwarman
02-17-2008, 11:09 PM
Was rereading up on some things and rediscovered the post you made about how you were more often then not threat capped then rage starved, even when you dropped your HR down to 170, wondered what that did to your damage output, ive been considering doing the same with my HR, dropping it from 192 down to 170, raiding in TK and SSC and comming in 10th to 13th on the charts makes me wonder if what im doing stat wise is just plain wrong, but also a bit hesitant to drop my hit by that much to pick up 8% crit strike rating and 16 more AP

192 hit
1920 ap
27.50 crit

feels liek with my stats i should be able to preform better then what i am, and i think it lies with my hit rating, like i said, considering dropping it down by replacing 2/3 +8 hit gems ive got left, good or bad idea based off of what you saw by doing this, in the instances my guilds currently running?

veger69
02-19-2008, 01:34 PM
Was rereading up on some things and rediscovered the post you made about how you were more often then not threat capped then rage starved, even when you dropped your HR down to 170, wondered what that did to your damage output, ive been considering doing the same with my HR, dropping it from 192 down to 170, raiding in TK and SSC and comming in 10th to 13th on the charts makes me wonder if what im doing stat wise is just plain wrong, but also a bit hesitant to drop my hit by that much to pick up 8&#37; crit strike rating and 16 more AP

192 hit
1920 ap
27.50 crit

feels liek with my stats i should be able to preform better then what i am, and i think it lies with my hit rating, like i said, considering dropping it down by replacing 2/3 +8 hit gems ive got left, good or bad idea based off of what you saw by doing this, in the instances my guilds currently running?

I currently raid with about 140-150 hit and I am typicaly #1 unless there is a melee unfriendly factor then im usually #2-3 all done with gear out of SSC/TK get rid of the hit gems man

Man first off you could improve your gear easily with badges. Get dory's embrace the leather tabi badge boots and a bloodlust broach. Replace bladefist with the hourglass out of heroic BM or a Darkmoon Fair crit card. Not as easy but doable start saving arena points and replace helm with any helm that takes a meta, preferably S2-S3 pvp helm or engineering helm and use the +3% crit damage meta. Replace your hit gems for DPS gems like +8 str, +8 crit, inscribed noble topazes +4str +4crit and lastly Replace rings with S3 ring and ring of a thousand marks. That would be a good start.

Dwarman
02-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Hmm, think the armory is out of whack, i havent used the bladesfist in ages LoL, The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Bodan), but yea, i decided to go ahead and replace the last two +8 hit gems ive got, my gear is actually fairly similar to what you've got Barmbul, so when i read your post i had a step back and really thought it out about what im doing thats throwing me off this far. but thanks, ill go ahead and toss out the last two +8 hit gems ive got and rethink that

Dwarman
02-19-2008, 07:38 PM
Hmm, think the armory is out of whack, i havent used the bladesfist in ages LoL, The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon+Guard&n=Bodan),

Well i went ahead and replaced those last two hit gems, so we'll see how it goes, makes me nervous, that and the fact my class leader and guild mates are laughing at my hit which made me second guess a few things but ill roll with it and see how it goes rather then second guess everyone else here heh, my gear is actually fairly similar to what you've got Barmbul, so when i read your post i had a step back and really thought it out about what im doing thats throwing me off this far from you.

who knows, could be my offhand weapon, could be, anything, lack of knowlege on my rotations which im still figuring out, mostly wanted for tanking due to the perception on my server that warriors cant dps, dont get many chances to prove them wrong :mad: well thanks and yea, working on Dory's embrace for my last badge reward and vindicators ring so we'll see if the extra arp helps out any, thanks for the reply Barmul

Dwarman
02-19-2008, 07:39 PM
sorry for double post, got an error message saying my post didnt go through so i reposted to find out it did in fact, go through, go figure

veger69
02-20-2008, 12:31 PM
lol sorry man was looking for a link for your gear and grabbed the armory link from the next poster down. Could not find your link. The only problem I have seen is with the low hit some times on trash ill have streaky dps because of miss streaks but on bosses it is not a problem and will only get better as you upgrade to better pieces with hit in BT/hyjal. Oh and my guild was killing Leo for probably the last time before we drop it from the schedule and the Tsunami dropped Woot!!! I have my endgame trinks now!!!!!

Vonage
02-24-2008, 02:18 PM
Hey, I was looking at the new badge gear and I noticed that all the new badge plate dps gear has haste on it and no crit. Is it just me or is that a horrible idea? I haven't run any numbers or anything, but isn't crit a much better stat than haste? Thoughtful replies appreciated, thanks.

GarrettJaxx
02-25-2008, 08:28 PM
Hey, I was looking at the new badge gear and I noticed that all the new badge plate dps gear has haste on it and no crit. Is it just me or is that a horrible idea? I haven't run any numbers or anything, but isn't crit a much better stat than haste? Thoughtful replies appreciated, thanks.

TOTALLY noticed this too. Really bummed, it seems the ONLY way to get crit gear is PvP arena or in 25 man raids, at least plate. :confused:

I know this isn't REALLY true, but for gosh sake, HASTE?!?! :p Well, would have been nice if they hooked us up, though the 100+dps daggers are nice, and the hit on the legs are sweet. Guess as one of three trees, one which balanced gear is key, we can't ask for too much pandering?!?!

Plate Crit seems so PvP-oriented though, and raid Fury is not that strong in PvP, it's just the fact of things I think. We're up for the challenge eh?

AS FOR YOUR QUESTION - IMO crit is better than haste for Fury because Flurry keeps our speeds up high enough typically, and crit is hard to come by for some. Of course, if you think about it, it's relative really, as is all in Fury. If you're crit is sort of low, then obviously crit is key. Haste is helpful if you have hard-hitting slower weapons like 2.7 or even 2.6 speeds. It'll boost your white damage dps for sure, and can also help with certain Specials like Execute or HS spam. It really just depends on your stats, and whether you're hurting for crit when raid-buffed, or if you're swinging slowish weapons that would improve your overall white dps by # swings/per second increasing uniformly. I have Heartless and I love it when Mongoose procs - I swing two 2.6 weps at about 1.70 each.

Kazeyonoma
02-26-2008, 10:48 AM
well, for our dps, it seems like once we reach our crit minimum, pushing str/arP/haste are higher scaling stats than more crit or +hit. I think blizz is trying to lean towards this, but fully forgot that if they replace our crit in ALL our pieces, we won't have enough crit anymore again. lawlz.

Filup
02-27-2008, 12:48 AM
Trinks?

What is considered to be the 2 end game trinks?
Ashtongue Talisman of Valor
Madness of the Betrayer
Prism of Inner Calm
Berserker's Call
Tsunami Talisman
Dragonspine Trophy

I think i hit all the major ones.

Kaganda
02-27-2008, 01:15 AM
Trinks?

What is considered to be the 2 end game trinks?
Ashtongue Talisman of Valor
Madness of the Betrayer
Prism of Inner Calm
Berserker's Call
Tsunami Talisman
Dragonspine Trophy

I think i hit all the major ones.

No Solarian's Sapphire? With a full melee group it adds enough DPS to be mentioned I should think.

GarrettJaxx
02-27-2008, 09:02 AM
I think I'd rank these as follows:

#1: Madness of the Betrayer - Items - WOWDB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=32505)
Hit + AP + ArmPen (if you have the gear and Executioner Proc) is a scaled DPS increase - massively impactful!!

#2: Tsunami Talisman - Items - WOWDB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=30627)
Gawgeous. Sick crit bonus which helps to scale proc-rate of AP increase (which obviously kicks in when Flurry's up. Watch yer threat with this one!!

#3: berserker's call - WOWDB Search (http://www.wowdb.com/search.aspx?search_text=berserker%27s+call)
Bloodlust Brooch improvement. It's nice, don't get me wrong - I think there's better out there, but 360 AP is sexahh!!

#4: Ashtongue Talisman of Valor - Items - WOWDB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=32485)
110 AP when it procs (25% is pretty frequently) - basically a BT nitro-turbo-boost. Sexah!!

#5: Dragonspine Trophy (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=30627)
Always been a fan of haste rating, and an AP increase is always nice, but it's not as much of an increase as BL Brooch or some others, and I am still learning about the relative value of haste rating, so ...

#6: Prism of Inner Calm - Items - WoW DB (http://www.wowdb.com/item.aspx?id=30621)
To me this is a bit of a waste of a trinket spot. I know threat management is key, key, key, but Salv and Omen ftw.

I'll take any of 'em atm, lol, but I'd likely pass on Prism of Inner Calm if it dropped for DKP, to be honest. I'm not at the point, personally, where my threat is unmanageable.

Filup
02-27-2008, 12:07 PM
Well Solarian's Sapphire is good for your party but not so good for your self. Compared to all the other tinks your gonna nerf your own dps. So yeah i guess it would be good if your going for total group dps. I Should have said for self dps.

Right now my guild is killing bosses that drop the
Tsunami Talisman
Berserker's call
Dragonspine Trophy

I have been told that dst is one of the best if not the best trink for Fury wars but im not sure.

brick
02-28-2008, 01:24 PM
Hello everyone I have been looking around and if this question has been asked please link the post I have been unlucky in my searches.
I recently got Talon of Azshara and enchanted it with Executioner. Last night I recieved Rage (main hand claw) my off hand atm is Vindicator's Brand with Potency. I would like to enchant Rage with Mongoose however before I do I wanted to know if Executioner has to be on the main hand or does it really not matter.


Thanks for your time
Brick

Kilgorin
02-28-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't believe it matters but if procs work how I figure they do, I think you'll get less procs from something on OH as you do on MH. But again I don't know that, I only figure. Anyone know for sure?

Kaganda
02-28-2008, 06:00 PM
Well Solarian's Sapphire is good for your party but not so good for your self. Compared to all the other tinks your gonna nerf your own dps. So yeah i guess it would be good if your going for total group dps. I Should have said for self dps.

Right now my guild is killing bosses that drop the
Tsunami Talisman
Berserker's call
Dragonspine Trophy

I have been told that dst is one of the best if not the best trink for Fury wars but im not sure.

Out of those three, I'd use Tsunami and Berserker's, if I was just going for personal DPS. I'm not sure that the Haste proc from DST is better than the AP and Crit from the other two.

GarrettJaxx
03-02-2008, 03:46 PM
Hello everyone I have been looking around and if this question has been asked please link the post I have been unlucky in my searches.
I recently got Talon of Azshara and enchanted it with Executioner. Last night I recieved Rage (main hand claw) my off hand atm is Vindicator's Brand with Potency. I would like to enchant Rage with Mongoose however before I do I wanted to know if Executioner has to be on the main hand or does it really not matter.


Thanks for your time
Brick

Doesnt matter to my knowledge. It will proc each minute a set amount, however, and if your hit rating is too low, and your offhand misses alot, then the math says that in a battle that lasts only seconds, it will not proc 'early' in the battle (and hence the buff helps for longer). Frankly, at the level you would be at to get the Talon, I'd be suprised if your hit rating was low to the point that you'd notice, but I'm interested in other people's replies on this.

Separate note - I have the choice of 169 hit and 28% crit or 135 hit and 30% crit. I'm thinking that the 169 hit is a much better option at this point, raiding in SSC and TK. But I'm curious - I'm hearing alot of static on the warrior forum boards at WoW.com about hit rating in the low hundreds being ok if crit is high enough. Goes against EVERYTHING I learned in this thread. Thoughts?

fastidius
03-03-2008, 03:03 PM
I would expect this to be recent talk and absed on the fact that flurry is bugged. I Stacked some extra crit to get my flurry time up even though i know ill drop it back for Hit as soon as 2.4 comes out.

No matter what you do at the moment you cant refresh flurry on the last charge making it goe down on you everytime you proc it. Normally it wouldn't drop and you wouldn't slow normal hits.

Basically +hit needs to be 1/3rd higher or so than normal to maintain what you had pre 2.3........it's fixed in 2.4 and the PTR seems OK from my brief time on it.

so in conclusion. yes you need more crit than hit at the moment to keep flurry up which is more swings a minute than you gain with a little extra +hit but its because of a bug not because its meant to be that way.

GarrettJaxx
03-03-2008, 05:44 PM
so in conclusion. yes you need more crit than hit at the moment to keep flurry up which is more swings a minute than you gain with a little extra +hit but its because of a bug not because its meant to be that way.

WOW thanks, if this is true, then a) this is good to know, at least; and b) GG Blizz, as if I needed to say that.

Maddette
03-03-2008, 06:36 PM
I just wanna say

THANK YOU!!

I have been wondering why I was only getting around ~800 DPS raid buffed...I have been going for waay too much hit.

Atm I have 233 hit...should of never listened to those rogues, they said I should try and cap my hit, but boy where they wrong.

I really, really am greatful for this and now I will have to set things right...again thank you!

Lacunata
03-04-2008, 11:01 PM
How is haste viable with all the Badgeloot and the Magisters Terrace Gear for newer DW Fury? Is the amount aviable large enough, or do you still need BT Level Gear (What stat level would that be).

fastidius
03-06-2008, 04:11 PM
I have been trying to figure out the haste benefits etc myself and cam to the following conclusion.


Abacus of Violent Odds & Dragonspine Trophy are particularly good to have equipped due to the haste benefits on normal swings. I wouldn't sacrifice ArP for it but i might look at dropping crit for it as if i swing 15&#37; more i should be able to drop some crit and still keep flurry up. I don't see any real negative to the stat but it's not very high on the valuable stat list for a warrior as far as i can tell.

The formula is something like 15.7 = 1% reduction in your Delay. Its not faster swings as such just lower delays if that make sense. It also doesn't affect much on our specials as they are normalised or AP based. you might suffer slightly on heroic strikes(??) but you can get more of them in so i guess its a trade off of Damage to QTY.

bear in mind that the math on weapon delay seems to be rounded to the nearest .1 so unless you are reducing both hands by at least .1 its not worth the slot. This may not be the case but it seems to be as i cant get a haste of such a small percentage to check.

I think theres a 4th item but i only have 3 i can find easily so heres what i figured out using a 2.5 weapon because its about average for slow slow i think.


Item - HV - H% - FinalDelay - Effect on 2.5 weapon - Rounded
legs - 43 - 2.73% - 97.27% - 2.431 - 2.4
Chest - 51 - 3.23% - 96.77% - 2.419 - 2.4
waist - 30 - 1.90% - 98.1% - 2.4525 - 2.5
all 3 - 124 - 5.86% - 94.14% - 2.3535 - 2.3

so if we do the math on say a Big Bad Wolf paw for a token item...
Min - Max - Delay
153-285-2.5

Probably a more eloquent way to write it but
((153+285)/2)
/2.5 = 87.6 DPS
/2.4 = 91.25 DPS
/2.3 = 95.22 DPS

now lets just think about what we can get with haste on it also....

Dragonspine trophy - 325 - 30.91%
Abacus of violent Odds - 260 - 16.5%
Dragonstrike (Crafter Mace) - 212 - 13.4%

so the reality is that if you buy the haste gear you are getting less hast than any one of these items gives.

Combined it may produce a 165 DPS DragonStrike but the trinkets are better than all the gear combined so to me it seems a pretty bad set of gear to get, your better with ArP badge Gear.

having said that if the Gear was to come out at say a 15-30% haste then it may be worth it. Flurry Adds to it slightly by adding +25% to the final figure but its still appears to be a fairly limited increase Via the Badge Gear.


My Math May be wrong so someone double check me 8) from what i know the Haste rattings are additive and then flurry is a multiplicative to that.

GarrettJaxx
03-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Haste does not seem very worth it, badge-wise. I'd look to weapons and trinket upgrades, and maybe the odd armor piece if, like me, you're just getting into t5 opps.

GraveBringer
03-10-2008, 04:23 PM
Man, thank you tons for posting this. I've been raiding for awhile and you answered almost all the questions I had ever had. Especially "6. Skill Rotations," that has helped so much. I mostly had just did BT and WW, but now I also know weather to use Cleave or Herioc Strike. And when to use it, and when to refresh BS and Rampage and such. Again thanks alot man, i'm sure im not the only one who appreciates this.

One question though, what did you prefer to have Hit Ratng at? Sort of got confused at the post.

Kaganda
03-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Hit Rating goals vary from player to player. Personally I'm happy in the 150-175 range, but I know others who perfer to be closer to, or even over, 200.

GraveBringer
03-10-2008, 06:27 PM
Ya, I was just wondering. I don't plan on socketing for hit rating regardless. I have 150 hit rating and pretty much crap gear =P. So as he says I wouldn't ever socket for hit.

Cayleb
03-14-2008, 09:11 PM
I have a quick question. Does anyone known if they nerfed the racial expertise on humans and orcs? I seem to remember two swords giving me 10 expertise just a few weeks ago. Tonight, I noticed it's just five. >.<

Kilgorin
03-14-2008, 09:35 PM
The racial for humans was sword/mace combo giving you 10 points of Expertise and would count as 2.5% reduc to dodge/parry. But on the PTR yeah they've changed it so each hand has its on seperate racial bonus. Humans with sword MH and mace OH comes out as 5/5 instead of 10. And if one hand has something other then those types it's 5/0 or 0/5.

Cayleb
03-14-2008, 09:35 PM
Ah, makes sense. Appreciate it.

Alkalindeath
03-17-2008, 11:10 PM
Hey, long time guide follower just looking for a bit of feedback on my stats. My crit is dipping a bit low for my likings so if there is anywhere that I can improve that would be excellent. We're currently working on T6 content and my ARP is 434 at this time.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Skullcrusher&n=Alkalindeath

Thanks.

Kilgorin
03-18-2008, 02:11 PM
This is my opinion, take it for what its worth :P. Since I don't have the DST from Gruul, I don't know how great it is. If crit is what your looking for you might switch it for (which is what I'm using atm) the Hourglass or if you guys still do Leo that Tsunami from him. If your not worried about AP maybe could redo some gems to get 5str/5crit instead of straight up 8 or 10 str. Other then that maybe hit up maxdps.com for the item lists they have there and compare to your current for what you could switch around.

byechee
03-18-2008, 03:16 PM
the only rule of dps is never drop dst.

OakskinDW
03-19-2008, 12:16 PM
After reading every response in this guide, I have yet to discover the answer to this question..

Why is Savagery not mentioned anywhere in here?

What is the reasoning of Potency over Savagery?

Thank you in advance.

Kazeyonoma
03-19-2008, 01:56 PM
savagery only goes on 2handed weapons.

OakskinDW
03-20-2008, 06:05 AM
Duh. Thanks for helping me cross that mental divide between ignorance and stupidity :) Potency it is!

GarrettJaxx
03-22-2008, 05:29 AM
The racial for humans was sword/mace combo giving you 10 points of Expertise and would count as 2.5% reduc to dodge/parry. But on the PTR yeah they've changed it so each hand has its on seperate racial bonus. Humans with sword MH and mace OH comes out as 5/5 instead of 10. And if one hand has something other then those types it's 5/0 or 0/5.
Thanks for noticing, Kilgorin (on the PTR :)). I was about to purchase Glad's Pummeler to get the 10 rating, as I saw with two swords I only got 5 pts, whereas with sword/mace I used to get a full 10. Looks like any racial human combo gets you 5/5 now. I assume that Expertise talents (2%) go to both hands equally, though.

GarrettJaxx
03-22-2008, 05:32 AM
Hey, long time guide follower just looking for a bit of feedback on my stats. My crit is dipping a bit low for my likings so if there is anywhere that I can improve that would be excellent. We're currently working on T6 content and my ARP is 434 at this time.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Skullcrusher&n=Alkalindeath)

Thanks.

Currently you're geared for Arms/Fury with a 2Hander, not sure if this was the spec you were interested in discussing (as this is a DW Fury thread, but all are welcome to post, of course). Regardless, I noticed you said ArP is 434 - I hope that Executioner is on one of your one-hand weapons, or else you're sort of wasting your time worrying about ArP. Without the boost from +840 procs, you're far too low to have it scale well for you. Again, not sure of your gear ...