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View Full Version : +Weapon Skill: solution to TPS?



Fame
08-25-2007, 02:21 PM
after a few decent upgrades in bt/mh i noticed a huge drop in my threat (from constant 1100 to 800 on the avg) i had done everything i could to counteract that starting from getting over +6 hit (which is around what i normaly run) to stacking more BV then i would normaly. nothing worked! thats when i dove into the WWS logs and had noticed the troublemaker right off the bat... mobs avoiding anywhere between 20-35% of my attacks. so with a 60-70% avoidance rate i would only get hit by 30-40% of the attacks that would turn into rage and only a 2/3 of that rage would get filtered back into threat because of the boss' avoidance.
i began playing around with weapon skill
(gloves from gorefiend (http://thottbot.net/i32280) = 36 skill rating [5.33 skill], mace from lurker (http://www.thottbot.com/i30058) = 14 skill rating [3.55], being human 5 skill... totaling out to 13.88 skill)
my threat had shot back up to where it used to be after putting on these +wpn skill pieces. i had noticed that the boss' dodge rate had drasticly gone done, where the parry rating just bairly droped [ @ getting 3 shotted in full t6 within .46 seconds because of the parry mechanic!]
this week some of our members went to WSVG's so i knew we were going to spend a good amount of atempts on Mother Shahraz, so i saw this as a great oppertunity to run some tests.
some of the atempts were taken with the gloves+mace to achieve the highest +wpn skill, and others i had replaced my weapon with the dagger from bloodboil (http://thottbot.net/i32269) and gloves with t6 (they dont have +dagger but just for avoidance) since im human the dagger is the only weapon i had that wouldnt get affected by my human racial.
looking at the logs you can clearly tell which atempts where taken with the dagger and which were taken with the mace and gloves.
Firstblood - WWS (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=uraq6izlcmrim&a=11)
there are a total of 11 seprate Mother atempts in there.

Ciderhelm
08-25-2007, 03:18 PM
I forwarded this via PM to Satrina. Weekends are usually dead around here, hopefully we get some good responses early next week. Still looking at the parses. :)

Wartorn
08-25-2007, 05:08 PM
WTB +Mace racial for Taurens.

Fame
08-25-2007, 05:34 PM
actualy the horde have it even better. the axe has 21 skill rating from supremus. (for orcs at least)

veneretio
08-25-2007, 06:30 PM
WTB +Mace racial for Taurens.
LOL. You already have 5% health and an AOE stun.

Anyway haven't had the chance to look over the numbers quite yet, but definitely an intriguing idea.

thugthedum
08-26-2007, 08:42 AM
hmm. so @ 6% hit, adding 13.88 skill added 300 threat per second and boss dodges were greatly reduced?

was this all fights, or just that one?

Wondering... if this is really different than the accepted wisdom (which is that hit is more important than skill, and calculated to the nth), does that mean this boss is L74+, or has the defense rating as such.

edit: granted, 13.88 skill is a lot.

Fame
08-26-2007, 10:51 AM
going from 800 to 1100 was just numbers that i commonly saw, it aint the exact figures so i wont sit here and claim that weapon skill will cover so a specific amount of TPS. what i will claim is that i noticed a diffrence not only im my TPS but visualy in WWS logs. And this is on just about every single boss out there. From what i had noticed +weapon skill certainly covers dodges, parries are another story (from what i noticed it does reduce parry but nowhere as much as it does with dodge)
In the end we simply need to look at it this way. An avoided attack is just that, thus a miss and a dodge are equally just as bad. so lowering the mobs chance to dodge you by one is the same as +1% to hit. What i would like to find out is how much +weapon skill is needed to take away one chance to dodge. From the conversation i been having with a guildmate, he calimed that there has been a test a while back that was posted on EJ stating that there is a soft cap of weapon skill of +10. However i have not heard of any other tests being run with weapon skill and i would like the community to get involved in trying to find this out.

if anyone has any suggestions of specific tests i can run i will be open ears.

Syana
08-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Hmm. Base % to dodge and parry = 5% for same level? 1% more for each level above you? So 8% from a boss mob. 15 skill difference(at 0.04% per skill) = 0.6%. So a total of 8.6% chance to dodge/parry?

Now the question is: Does increasing your weapon skill effectively increase your "level" against the mob as well? Thus it also eliminates the 1% per level penalty?

If it's just 0.04% per skill level, it's kinda low; weapon skill rating conversion to actual weapons kill is kinda crap(roughly 5 rating per skill?)

Gharakor
08-26-2007, 12:07 PM
I've been trying to look up about weapon skill, as I am an orc, and my luck with tanking weapon is not something I'm proud about (I killed vashj with a sun eater, and prolly will kill Kael with the same thing >_< never seen a king's defender drop and I started running karazhan very early)

Right now, I have a warbringer(Warbringer - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29165)) sitting in the bank, been thinking about dusting it off and trying it, since I am an orc, I get 5 skill with it (not rating, 5 skill, which amount to alot of rating, roughly 20 or so)

...Am I developping an hate for my Sun eater or is the warbringer really a ''threat'' upgrade for me?

Syana
08-26-2007, 12:17 PM
The Sun Eater vs Warbringer

Sun Eater is an avoidance weapon. Raw dps isn't much higher than Warbringer. With your racial(and the omg 7 hit rating), I'd say it's definitely a threat upgrade; however, you lose 10 stamina.

The Brutalizer is what you really want!

Gharakor
08-26-2007, 12:58 PM
gotta kill Kael first to get there!

and really, killing Kael for the first time with a sun eater would be disgusting, at least for me >_<

SIGH, why can't the mallet drop :/

and yeh, I've been wanting the brutalizer as my dream tanking weapon for ever, the thing is so sexy >_<

Ciderhelm
08-27-2007, 06:47 AM
Bumping so this doesn't get lost in the mix.

Aelvain
08-27-2007, 01:52 PM
There has been testing posted in a thread on EJ suggesting basically the same thing you found, but there is still some uncertainty as to what the conversion is. It's pretty safe to say that it reduces the mob's chance to dodge and increases hit significantly more than it reduces the mob's chance to parry. Testing also suggests that the avoidance decrease is not linear - the greatest decrease in mob avoidance is when going from weapon skill 354 - 355. Again there is too much uncertainty to know for sure, but if you're interested I would check out EJ where more extensive testing has been posted.

Kazeyonoma
08-27-2007, 02:20 PM
The Sun Eater vs Warbringer

Sun Eater is an avoidance weapon. Raw dps isn't much higher than Warbringer. With your racial(and the omg 7 hit rating), I'd say it's definitely a threat upgrade; however, you lose 10 stamina.

The Brutalizer is what you really want!

I r Orc, that Weapon makes Orc want to ****** in pants.

brain9h
08-28-2007, 08:33 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they made new raid bosses lvl 74 or more, lvl 80 is coming.

thugthedum
08-28-2007, 03:37 PM
true.

other thing i'm thinking after being away a few days.

wonder if it's like the huntar crit/ap conundrum. more ap is good until you have x at which point you need more crit until you have y at which point you need more ap...

don't say "everyone knows that skill is worth 0.04 and hit is worth blah blah blah". I know, and I live and die by it - but it's not explaining this.

Fame
08-28-2007, 06:00 PM
want to have some fun with this. have a human with mallet, or an orc with brut wearing gauntlets of enforcement go do heroics. i did this earlier today and bairly had any dodges against me from 70-72's.

Ciderhelm
08-30-2007, 03:37 PM
Bumping this thread in the hopes of an expert math nut helping to parse this. Crimson.

Crimsonstorm
08-30-2007, 03:59 PM
Ok:

Best info I have on weapon skill is that against a mob of higher defense skill than your weapon skill, 1 point of wepaon skill does:

+.1&#37; hit
.2% less dodges by the mob
.04% crit.

The dodge reduction is as valuable as the hit, and it also doesnt apply towards the hit cap (so stacking hit + weapon skill lets you do more than just +hit).

I find that 1% crit is worth about as much threat as .75% hit. So the .04% crit is a bit like .03% more hit.

Thus 1 weapon skill is equivalent to .33% hit, but only .1% of that counts towards the cap.

3.9 weapon skill rating = 1 weapon skill, and thus 3.9 weapon skill rating = .33% hit (which is 5.2 hit rating).

Thus 3.9 weapon skill rating = 5.2 hit rating.

1 weapon skill rating is as beneficial as 1.33 hit rating, and most of its benefit doesnt apply to the hit cap.

Another way to look at it is 3 weapon skill rating = 4 hit rating.

If only we could really choose to stack weapon skill...

Crimsonstorm
08-30-2007, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they made new raid bosses lvl 74 or more, lvl 80 is coming.

Raid bosses always count as your level + 3.

(And level 80 isnt coming for quite a while)

Crimsonstorm
08-30-2007, 04:02 PM
If it is true that there is a big jump from weapon skill 354 to 355, then you should definitely do whatever you can to get to skill 355, if it is possible.

thugthedum
08-30-2007, 04:18 PM
So at the hit cap, skill rating gives you .2 off the bosses dodge &#37; and takes 0.04 out of your hit % and applies it to your crit %?

thugthedum
08-30-2007, 04:19 PM
Raid bosses always count as your level + 3.

(And level 80 isnt coming for quite a while)

I hate the word always. Almost as much as I hate the word never.

Crimsonstorm
08-30-2007, 04:29 PM
So at the hit cap, skill rating gives you .2 off the bosses dodge % and takes 0.04 out of your hit % and applies it to your crit %?

If you were already at the hit cap, you would only get the .2% dodge reduction and the .04% crit bonus. You would be wasting the .1% hit boost.

1 weapon skill has roughly .33% hit in value, but only applies to the cap as much as .1% would.

Crimsonstorm
08-30-2007, 04:30 PM
I hate the word always. Almost as much as I hate the word never.

Well....what raid boss doesnt count as your level +3?

Crimsonstorm
08-31-2007, 03:33 PM
Seems like new info on the elitist jerks for thread indicates that weapon skill is in fact even more beneficial than this.

Basically, it rules.

thugthedum
08-31-2007, 03:37 PM
Well....what raid boss doesnt count as your level +3?

Don't ask me! I'm just a scrub Kara/Gruul MT :p

But it does seem like as the uB3r guilds progress, the foundations much of our theory work stands on need to shift.

9 is the new 8.6, for instance. And this new oddness about weapon skill.

Crimsonstorm
08-31-2007, 04:38 PM
A 'skull' level boss mob counts as player level+3 to each player. There are no known exceptions, and it would be a bit wierd for them to program an exception to that.

Ciderhelm
08-31-2007, 09:46 PM
Seems like new info on the elitist jerks for thread indicates that weapon skill is in fact even more beneficial than this.

Basically, it rules.

I'd love to go by what the EJ forums are saying, but so many people are in disagreement that I don't see how it's reliable. Was there an update in the last few days I missed?

This is extremely hard to test/parse which is the problem. A lot like learning the Combat Tables and all of the parsing that went into it, only changed 2 years late in the game. :(

thugthedum
09-01-2007, 12:56 AM
well; i'm happy swinging my KD at the Prince and Maulgar for now. I doubt weapon skill is important enough for me to go farm Terokk's Nightmace or something weird like that. Maybe once hit starts hitting a wall of diminishing returns wep skill is your new best friend.

Tho, it was a great tanking weapon at 68.

Fame
09-01-2007, 06:27 AM
Honestly i didnt have an issue with TPS till a few boss' in BT/MH and that is only due to everyone else' DPS skyrocketing. Im sure my TPS could have been higher if i was going more after weapon skill, however no one in the raid was threat caped back then so i never had the need to investigate on this issue (im also human and was using Blazefury.)
Honestly i think Blizzard is still toying around with the weapon skill and its exact effects, however there is just not enough study or people playing around with it to find out the changes in it from patch to patch. Right now boss' are doding me anywhere from 2-6&#37; which is a huge step up from what they used to.

Galvan
09-02-2007, 01:10 PM
I have been wondering about this subject for a while now. Being Draenei I have +1% hit but how far is that going to carry me? From the Calc. listed here that doesnt seem to amount to much (we have been low on Mallet drops as well) so I'm also using Blazefury. We are starting Hyjal tonight so I'll see how my threat goes, but I'm concerned to say the least after talking to some of the BT clearing guilds here on Korgath.

Here is my armory for reference

The Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Galvan)

Crimsonstorm
09-02-2007, 11:18 PM
It seems pretty clear from the elitist jerks research that:

Against any mob that is lv 72 or lower, each pt of weapon skill does:
.1&#37; hit, some amount of dodge reduction that is likely .2%, some amount of crit that is around .04%.


Against a boss mob (73), it does:
Some amount of dodge reduction that is likely .2%, some amount of crit that is around .04%, and a hit bonus that is not linear, and goes like this:

Weapon skill pt #351: .4% to hit!
Weapon skill pt #352: .4% to hit!
Weapon skill pt #353: .4% to hit!
Weapon skill pt #354: .4% to hit!
Weapon skill pt #355: 1.4% to hit!!!!

And then all future weapon skill points give .1% hit (and the dodge/crit)


Essentially:

If a mob has a defense rating that is more than 10 above your weapon skill, the for each point beyond 10, there is a penalty to hit of .4% in stead of .1%. Additionally, there is an added 1% hit penalty if the mob is more than 11 above you. So this results in the first 5 points of weapon skill you gain, vs a boss, giving .4%, .4%, .4%, .4%, 1.4% reduction in misses.


Your base miss chance with no weapon skill is:
Lv 70: 5%
Lv 71: 5.5%
Lv 72: 6%
Lv 73: 9%

Atlantian
09-02-2007, 11:23 PM
this may be a bit of an odd question. but. does mace/sword/axe skill only work for that actual weapon? like the hit&#37; only good for the attacks made with that actual weapon type. Does it work for shields too since its not "shield skill"

Armstrong
09-04-2007, 11:51 AM
this may be a bit of an odd question. but. does mace/sword/axe skill only work for that actual weapon? like the hit&#37; only good for the attacks made with that actual weapon type. Does it work for shields too since its not "shield skill"
Just from experience any time I've had to level a new weapon skill from 300 to 350, Shield Slam was definitely subject to the same amount of extra avoidance as all other specials were. It's probably safe to assume that weapon skill from gear (above 300) also affects Shield Slam and Shield Bash the same way.

Aelvain
09-04-2007, 01:41 PM
I would suggest conclusions about weapon skill not be leapt to. There is still a lot of uncertainty, and toting estimations as fact could be misleading. Basically all that can reasonably be said is that weapon skill is very good, especially when getting the last point up to 355.

Fame
09-08-2007, 05:39 AM
Just a slight update, the MS warrior in my guild (human using sword) started running at 6&#37; hit and hasnt missed yet. When he had went down to 5.6% or so he had missed 1 Execute on the entier boss fight.