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veneretio
08-20-2007, 09:29 AM
Thunderfury vs King’s Defender in regards to Devastate

Devastate is calculated as the following…
(Weapon Damage / 2) + (35 * Number of Sunders) - Mitigation

The following accurate data reworked by Armstrong assumes the proc of TF does 300 damage = 300 threat with a 20% proc rate and 5 sunders.

For what it's worth, actual average Devastate damage based on 1200 AP and 15% crit, before mitigation looks like this:

TF: (((44+16 + 115+30) /2 + 1200/14) /2 + 175) * 1.15 = 378
KD: (((98 + 182) /2 + 1200/14) /2 + 175) *1.15 = 400

Let's use an arbitrary 30% mitigation, and assume that 5/5 1H Spec roughly cancels out the 10% Def Stance penalty. We then get:

TF: 265
KD: 280

Now with (300 x 0.2) = 60 threat from TF's proc, TF comes out on top for Devastate threat alone:

TF: 325
KD: 280

If TF's threat is not affected by threat modifiers, we get the following:

TF: (265 + 101) * 1.3 * 1.15 + 60 = 607
KD: (280 + 101) * 1.3 * 1.15 = 570

And we find that Thunderfury does more threat than King’s Defender when using Devastate.

Which means:
1. TF > KD when using Revenge
2. TF > KD when using Devastate
3. TF = KD when using Shield Slam

Which explains why it can keep up and ultimately out threat King's Defender.

Update: Thanks Armstrong for steering this away from theory and closer to something factual.

Horacio
08-20-2007, 09:35 AM
Rawr! I'm not foolishly holding on to the sentimental past after all!

but wait.....KD has a little armor, a boatload of stamina and some +hit(which directly effects threat gen...)

Meh, good enough for me, I'll keep my TF. Lets see KD send bolts of lightning up Prince's skirt O.o

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 09:40 AM
I want TF =(

thugthedum
08-20-2007, 09:50 AM
where do you get 161?

I get an average hit of 140 from King's Defender- but you have to figure in your AP too.

Here's an old spreadsheet I put together about devastate damage and threat qualities of various weapons. It originally sought to quantify a weapon's devastate only threat output against the High Warlord's Cleaver, which I tanked with right after 2.0 up until I got my KD. It ignores hit and crit. It assumes weapon normalization at 2.4 (no daggers), and it assumes 1200 AP, which in retrospect is not exactly right. You can probably tell, I was -really- excited about Devastate when I did this.

Google Docs & Spreadsheets - Threat Weapons (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2xF-a9U97VnqhD9xKjXaEA)

Now I use my swing calculator - http://www.ro-guild.com/thug/swing.php instead. It still assumes the HWLC as a baseline. I loved that weapon. The swing calc tries to put together a little bit more of a big picture - cycles in heroic strike half the time, shield slams whenever possible, and does a 5 sunder devastate every gcd not used by shield slam.

As our guild was always too small to run MC (25 mans ftw!) I had no hope of a TF, so I never learned its mechanics in enough detail to factor it in to my threat research.

BTW: posting here to get smarter heads to look at my numbers. I put a lot of time in to it, but that doesn't guarantee my accuracy!

Armstrong??

Alchamire
08-20-2007, 09:56 AM
WTT Essence of Alchamire for TF!

veneretio
08-20-2007, 10:18 AM
where do you get 161?

I get an average hit of 140 from King's Defender- but you have to figure in your AP too.

1. Where do you get 161?

As illustrated in the original post given a 15% crit rate
(Average Weapon Damage*1.15 / 2) + (175)

140 becomes 161 on average with 15% to crit.

Edit: Following is inaccurate. You DO have to factor in AP.
//2. You have to figure in your AP too.
//Nope. Devastate is just weapon damage. AP has nothing to do with it as far as I know.

Armstrong
08-20-2007, 11:19 AM
Honestly I've never looked into the mechanics of the TF proc and its threat, etc.

I guess the two most important factors are 1) how solid is those 300 threat & 20% proc chance figures used, and 2) does the 300 factor-in Defensive Stance and Defiance modifiers, and if not, is it affected by them at all. There was a time where the slowing debuff and the NR decreasing debuff also had some innate threat of their own, but I don't know whether that's still the case.

I personally suspect that threat from weapon procs are not affected by threat modifiers, but that's just an educated guess based on tooltip descriptions and how other similar effects usually work. I didn't test any of this.

Devastate does factor in normalized Attack Power (2.4 speed modifier for all 1Hers except daggers, which get a 1.7 modifier). Crits include the bonus damage from the number of sunders on the target.



For what it's worth, actual average Devastate damage based on 1200 AP and 15% crit, before mitigation looks like this:

TF: (((44+16 + 115+30) /2 + 1200/14) /2 + 175) * 1.15 = 378
KD: (((98 + 182) /2 + 1200/14) /2 + 175) *1.15 = 400

Let's use an arbitrary 30% mitigation, and assume that 5/5 1H Spec roughly cancels out the 10% Def Stance penalty. We then get:

TF: 265
KD: 280

Now with (300 x 0.2) = 60 threat from TF's proc, TF comes out on top for Devastate threat alone:

TF: 325
KD: 280

If TF's threat is not affected by threat modifiers, we get the following:

TF: (265 + 101) * 1.3 * 1.15 + 60 = 607
KD: (280 + 101) * 1.3 * 1.15 = 570

TF is still on top by 37 threat per Devastate. I don't know that I wouldn't switch to a higher-DPS weapon in low-rage situations, but otherwise, legendaries FTW. :)

veneretio
08-20-2007, 11:40 AM
I've update the original post to ensure that what people read is closer to truth. I was hoping the Devastate expert would post on this thread, you have my thanks and I'm sorry to everyone else that had to read the inaccurate math I posted earlier. (such the beauty of forums that we can find truth from lies) I'll investigate whether the proc is affected by defensive stance modifiers, but my assumption like yours is that it will not. The 20% is as solid as I can get based on reviewing a lot of wowwebstats data, but I'll look into it further as well.

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 11:44 AM
So... does anyone wanna explain to a warrior who became a tank late in the game, how exactly does one procur a Tfury, so I can convince my guildies to get it for me? ;D

veneretio
08-20-2007, 11:46 AM
A thunderfury proc can occur on a heroic strike, auto attack, revenge or devastate. (I'm certain I'm missing one...)

Basically, if an ability can proc Mongoose. It can proc TF.

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Oh , i didn't mean Proc, i meant Obtain. As in, what items and what quests need to be done to get it. Lol.

Horacio
08-20-2007, 11:57 AM
You really wanna know?

Obtain a Binding of the Windseker off od each Garr and Baron Geddon on MC. Both about a 3% drop rate completely independant of one another. Start the quest line in Silithus. Defeat Ragnaros and loot the Essence of the Firelord (100% drop)

Obtain 10 pieces of eternuim ore from BWL. Learn to smelt it by mind controlling the goblin dude in between Firemaw and Ebonroc. Collect 100 Arcanite Bars. (yep, 100 of em) Add in a few cores and some essences of fire and then go summon a raid boss(call you gm at home and tell him to open up the guild bank, lol) in Silithus, kill him, loot, go back to quest guy, you have a TF.

PUT IT ON MASTERLOOT WHEN YOU SUMMON THUNDERAAN.

I might have missed some steps, its been a while.

Alchamire
08-20-2007, 12:06 PM
Search Wowhead: World of Warcraft Database (http://www.wowhead.com) for "thunderfury" and you should find all you need to know.

thugthedum
08-20-2007, 12:30 PM
A thunderfury proc can occur on a heroic strike, auto attack, revenge or devastate. (I'm certain I'm missing one...)

Basically, if an ability can proc Mongoose. It can proc TF.
hamstring? rend?

I thought people used to hamstring spam to get crusader procs on their 2h ;)

of course, a pr0t type would spam devastate instead and not waste gcd on hamstring.

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 01:34 PM
wow, 100 arcanite bars... Holy bejeezus.

thugthedum
08-20-2007, 01:36 PM
wow, 100 arcanite bars... Holy bejeezus.

arcane crystals dont even sell for 5g now on my server, but in the heydey they went for 30, and at times 100g @.

(100g right after that patch came out where every one had to have some for the T.5 quest, 20-30 most of the time)

Horacio
08-20-2007, 01:38 PM
Oh, to go back to the days when it procced of SS.......good times...yeah, it can pop on hamstring and rend. I have been known to toss a rend up on mobs when I have rage to burn. Waste of a GCD but oh well, I'm weird like that.

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 01:59 PM
looks like i'm going to MC to try to get bindings =D and how long is the Quest chain in Silithus? O_o.

Horacio
08-20-2007, 02:06 PM
Not long, you just need to do it inbetween getting the first ninding and killing Rags so you can loot the essence. Its more a matter of gathering mats IF** you can get both bindings....that's the hard part.

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2007, 02:34 PM
hrm, lol, how many does it take to do MC now that we're all 70? If its only 10ish then i might be able to muster up a group lol.