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View Full Version : Imp. Revenge HIGHLY underrated



Warriorc
08-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Fellow warriors,

This is my first time on this site. (well :P my first time i ever heard of it) and i see clearly that Improve revenge is highly underrated.

I'm a tank from realm Vashj. Have tanked Kara, Gruul, The Eye (void only)specced 5/5/51.

I have this spec for quite some time and i realy like the imp. revenge (instead of imp. sunder). Imp. revenge is a very good skill to reduce AoE damage to the raid. Saving the healers major mana.

As far for the guides i read (all of them) i havent even seen 1 thingy about imp revenge. Even in the raid-situation where the tank gets enough rage from the mobs, people still choose imp. sunder above imp. revenge

I hope people will try this and maybe benefit from this post.
Any reactions/objections are welcome.

Greetingz, Warriorc @ EU-Vashj

Signu
08-15-2007, 12:45 PM
I only tank Kara, but I agree. Why would you not want a 2 rage possible stun? It seems like most of the trash in Kara is stunnable. No one will convince me to get rid of it until all the mobs I tank are unstunnable.

Haam
08-15-2007, 12:55 PM
I had it until i finished doing 5-mans and heroics. While it does seem very useful, there are two problems with it. First off many things cannot be stunned, the mobs that are actually hard that you want to stun are immune. Second, you don't want the guy you are fighting to be stunned a bunch because then he can't hit and and therefor you cannot get rage so you can't get threat so you can't maintain aggro. Then when he comes out of being stunned he attacks one of your casters, and that is always bad.

It does have more threat, but a negligible amount.

~Haam

Signu
08-15-2007, 12:57 PM
I haven't had any problems with that yet. Just lucky perhaps.

veneretio
08-15-2007, 01:06 PM
I only tank Kara, but I agree. Why would you not want a 2 rage possible stun? It seems like most of the trash in Kara is stunnable. No one will convince me to get rid of it until all the mobs I tank are unstunnable.
Remember how hard it is when a rogue opens on a mob with cheap shot. Imp Revenge gets to do this for you all the time. I'm going to throw something out there that a lot of people might disagree with...

Stuns are bad.

There I said it. Many of you have been thinking it, experienced it, probably hidden it away in the back of your mind afraid to say it. But wait you say...

Concussion Blow is Amazing!

When do you use this ability? When you NEED to stun something. So you've lost agg and taunt is down okay then you stun. But that's not what Imp Revenge does... it stuns when you don't want to and it's not reliable enough to stun when you NEED it to.

So why do people love Imp Revenge?

It's a great "storyteller" ability. It creates those situations where omg he's going to kill me and I randomly stunned him so I won! I'm not interested in a great story, I want a consistent ability. Imp Revenge is inconsistent.

Basically, 90% of the time you don't want or need a stun and when you do, you already have Concussion Blow. Imp Revenge is a grinding ability and that's about all imo.

Warriorc
08-15-2007, 01:08 PM
Haam.

To be honest i think you are wrong. The mobs hits you hard enough to get rage and spam devastate or sunder armor for 1 or 2 times. This counts for Karazhan and most of the Heroic instances (and offcourse the higher raids/instances).

For the caster part. IF the caster gets aggro, the tank has allways taunt to take the aggro again AND you have made enough rage with your auto attacks to land a Shield Slam in the target his face.

Again. Im talking about raiding and heroics.

@veneretio

It's true that is not a skill that you must put 100% faith in. BUT the people that are like "The Storytellers" just need to l2p. I never, and i realy mean NEVER, have any problem with targets being stunned. I dont rely on the proc, but if it proc (for 3 sec) it saves healing the tank wich means more mana for the healers.
I see your from the website TankingTips.com - A guide to tanking as a Warrior in World of Warcraft (http://www.tankingtips.com) so i assume you have seen the engineers in "The EYe" that throw boms to the raid doing freakin loads of damage. Imp revenge is a saver here. It stuns randomly wich will increase the stuntime of that mob.

Im not telling to put your faith in it 100%. im telling you to try it in raids were it can be usefull.

Greetingz, Warriorc @ EU-Vashj

Fame
08-15-2007, 01:18 PM
i had 2/3 imp revenge in my spec ever since i first started tanking (BC) and have absolutly zero regrets for having it. i tanked everything from 5 mans to illidan, and there are mobs in every zone that revenge works on. the main reason i got it was because i just did not see where i could put the last 2 remaning talent points into. however, the more i had it the more useful it has become. you will notice it being extreamly useful in Hyjal.

Atlantian
08-15-2007, 01:53 PM
for trash i can see its uses, however, i'd hate to open up a fight and have a stun go off right away and then sorta be a bit screwed. If you do alot of multimob tanking, sure, great to have. i may consider it for hyjal. however, if you are currently progressing and struggling on a new boss i'd say there are better places to spend your points.

it is a nice extra place for points, but it would not be on my top 40 points spent.

Warriorc
08-15-2007, 02:08 PM
Hello Atlantian,

If that happens when it procs like....instant :P you are not screwed, since you have Bloodrage for times like those

Kazeyonoma
08-15-2007, 02:33 PM
I don't know about ya'll but if I don't generate steady 700+ TPS in raids, My groups either hold back a ton on dps, or they are in ez-mode and pull agro quick.

I love imp revenge for heroics and certain trash, dont get me wrong its cool. But for the 3 points its in, you can place it elsewhere.

and blood rage gives me 1 trinketed Shield slam. that's 4k threat at best for me right now. dps can EASILY climb to 4k threat by the time he's unstunned and now I have no rage.

Groundchuck
08-15-2007, 02:45 PM
Stuns are bad.


Concussion Blow is Amazing!


Amen.

To me it's a matter of gearing and content. If you're ever struggling for rage them stuns are terrible. They only serve to give you less rage. In 25-man instances if a mob pops out of stun it'll often go to someone else and even that second before I can taunt can lead to cleaves, dead meele, etc...

On trash (since pretty much every raid boss is unstunable) I'm also not interested in saving healer's mana. They can drink, they really shouldn't run OOM on any trash pull that goes well, and it's more about dps assisting right away so mobs die. This means I need tons of rage. Stunned mobs don't give me rage.


With the original example imp sunder frees up rage to spend on higher threat abilities. Imp revenge at worst reduces my incoming rage and at best the mob is immune. (Hyjal trash seems to be a reasonable exception)

It comes back to the idea that tanking is about being able to take more damage, not taking less damage.

Warriorc
08-15-2007, 02:45 PM
I have tanked all the way with imp revenge, and i allways get 700+ threat while tanking. Even with my noobier gear i tanked with Imp Revenge and didnt realy had a problem with the threat.

Im sure there is a better spec for ppl who are not that well geared or just cant get 700+ threat with Imp revenge in their talent build. But like im trying to say, the whole raid can benefit from it. So it shouldnt be just tossed aside like it's some sort of crap.

@Groundchuck
In raids you shouldt be struggling for rage, if you do, you have the best gear in game and dont have to raid anymore :). And offcourse that if you do everything perfect noone needs to drink and eat, but you have to have allways room for complications. AND if a mob does aoe dmg to the whole raid with throwing stupid arcane bombs, trust me, there will be OOM healers.

owhyeah btw, i thought tanking was about take more dmg AND survivebility (taking less dmg)? or am i wrong?

veneretio
08-15-2007, 04:07 PM
I have tanked all the way with imp revenge, and i allways get 700+ threat while tanking. Even with my noobier gear i tanked with Imp Revenge and didnt realy had a problem with the threat.
See what I like to do is replace that "didn't really" with "never". That's the goal. I guarantee that you've had instances where a dpser has pulled aggro off you. What I've seen is that the frequency of this, albeit it, rare occurrence increases with Imp Revenge.

Imp Revenge is a strong skill for an off-tank. I won't deny that. It's a lot like dodge in many ways and as a result it couples very poorly with dodge. It creates situations where healers fall asleep and then can't respond quickly enough to spikes of damage.

The issue I have with Imp Revenge is that regular Revenge is a fantastic early Threat Generation tool and Imp Revenge morphs it into a poor early Threat Generation tool since it can destroy your early threat development rather than greatly aid in it. You basically warp Revenge from something like Shield Slam into something like Demo Shout or Thunderclap. Sure these abilities have a time and a place, but I don't want to lose my Regular Revenge. I like it how it is just fine.

And perhaps that's why some people like Imp Revenge is because they want another Mitigation/Avoidance ability, but personally I want more Threat generating abilities and Imp Revenge destroys one of the few I have.

Haam
08-15-2007, 09:12 PM
When you are raiding all the things that CAN be stunned by imp. revenge are wimps and are taken down with ease. All the guys that are actually hard cannot be stunned, so it is useless. I never have "too much" rage because i can just spam heroic strike, and that get me to about 20 rage in about 10 seconds.

Also, if you lose aggro and they are going for the casters/healers, you are pretty much screwed since most mobs in raids are immune to taunt. You have to spam shield slam to get your threat back up top.

~Haam

Narshe
08-16-2007, 01:49 AM
Almost every mob in heroics in vulnerable to stuns. Even the usually 2-truck-hitting-mob pull are inmune to all kind of CC but stuns.
Imp Revenge is great for heroics, you should be able to get enough agro even with the mob stunned, if not, use taunt to gain threat.

Trū
08-16-2007, 02:24 AM
Why would a mob being stunned reduce the threat you're able to gain? All of our threat generation is active, so other than rage (which we can gain from bloodrage and other mobs hitting us), what would cause us to lose our position on the hate table?

psychostomp
08-16-2007, 02:53 AM
tru most of the time when i pull i pop bloodrage and then SS, about half the time the mobs first 1-2 hits get dodge/parry/blocked therefore revenge lights up right away and bam stunned mob almost no rage and after the next move i am left waiting on rage and quickly losing the tps race.

I swear (loudly and often) at rogues who open with a stun. If I did it randomly myself i wouldnt be able to enjoy my selfrighteous fury nearly as much.

Trū
08-16-2007, 03:26 AM
Oooh!
Thank you! That makes it much more clear. ^.^
I haven't hit high enough tiers on avoidance to see that kind of effect yet.

Narshe
08-16-2007, 03:33 AM
You can always use a Pyroblast opener then taunt. That's a lot of threat.

Warriorc
08-16-2007, 03:50 AM
tru most of the time when i pull i pop bloodrage and then SS, about half the time the mobs first 1-2 hits get dodge/parry/blocked therefore revenge lights up right away and bam stunned mob almost no rage and after the next move i am left waiting on rage and quickly losing the tps race.

I swear (loudly and often) at rogues who open with a stun. If I did it randomly myself i wouldnt be able to enjoy my selfrighteous fury nearly as much.

tr00, but the time he is stunned after your shieldslam, your bloodrage is still ticking AND you get rage from your auto attack(maybe crit). THis should be enough to apply at least 1 sunder or HS.

Shortypop
08-16-2007, 05:26 AM
Personally I think imp revenge has it's place but I'm with some of the posters here and will say that I don't like it's unpredictability, I use it as an agro increasing tool not as a decrease damage done to me tool. I comes down to where you would rather have points and what you are currently doing.

Also, unless I'm wrong taunt only gives you "temporary" threat but once it's worn off you still need to have made up the difference in the meantime, sure if it's easy trash its most likely dead but nor necessarily :)

Narshe
08-16-2007, 06:07 AM
Also, unless I'm wrong taunt only gives you "temporary" threat but once it's worn off you still need to have made up the difference in the meantime, sure if it's easy trash its most likely dead but nor necessarily :)
It was changed when Naxx was launched to allow the mechanic for the Four Horsemen fight. Now it gives the same threat as the person who have the aggro. This only works on tauntable mobs and only if they are not targetting you.
Sorry if its not well explained, but Im sure you can read it in proper english in one of Cider guides.

TheZ
08-16-2007, 06:32 AM
Improved Revenge is a waste of talent points for 25mans, spend the talent points in Improved Thundercalp or 2/5 Improved Demo Shout or Improved Heroic Strike. I find that it's a waste of a point because:

1) It's a proc, procs are not reliable to proc when you may really need it.
2) About 75% of mobs in 25mans are Immune to stun, so even if you do proc it they are Immune anyways.
3) 99% of Bosses are Immune to stun and the extra 30 threat on proc is negligable.

Now asside from the facts and looking more at theory crafting and the use of improved revenge in 'raids'. If your currently tanking a mob that's stunable there is most likely 3 rogues also attacking that mob as whell which are most likely going to stun it anyways. Most* mobs that Are stunable Are squishy and die really quickly. Yes I've seen the point argued of the guys that throw bombs in TK, thing is that there is only One pull with more than One and they die so quickly the stun would just be an overall waste. You have concusion blow which is on a 45 second cooldown and while tanking that's usualy enough time to use between pulls or two times durring pulls when you Want to stun a mob.

The only place where I see the talent being 'usefull' in raids is Hyjal if your a designated offtank that is Not going to be tanking the tougher unstunable mobs or the bosses. This is because with thoes 3 talent points I can spend them elsewhere to improve my surviveability or by increseing my overall threat potential.

Improved Revenge has its places and that's PvP, Heroics, and 5 mans. It's not ment for 25 man raid instances due to stun mechanics. Also due to the fact that if your not getting hit your not generating as much rage as if your not getting hit so that equates into less threat output on stuned mobs. Where if you lose agro in a 25 man that's most likely also going to equal in an unnessary party death because you couldn't hold proper aggro.

Signu
08-16-2007, 06:39 AM
1) It's a proc, procs are not reliable to proc when you may really need it.


So, you're saying that Mongoose is garbage?

Diomedes
08-16-2007, 07:00 AM
So, you're saying that Mongoose is garbage?

I think he's just saying that if there was another weapon enchant that did the same expected dodge/crit/haste buff as mongoose but was applied at all times rather than randomly, he'd take that in a heartbeat.

At least, that's how I read it (and would tend to agree).

Stonehoof
08-16-2007, 07:09 AM
Just through my two cents into the pile as well...

Imp Rev to me is a great grinding and Prot PVP talent - But for raiding I would rather not have it.
Like many have said before, its creates alot of great stories, but when you really break it down its either not being used (stun immune) or it can caused you to be rage starved, which is something I dislike greatly.

Let the rogues stun, and save your conc blow for when you really need that on demand stun.


Oh and also - Warstomp FTW

Sprinks
08-16-2007, 09:38 AM
I was going to post with my opinion, but TheZ beat me to it. I completely agree with what he said. You can Conc blow on demand instead of relying on a proc. The goal of a raid tank is to be able to take as much damage as possible and still live, hence why some of the best tanks in the world champion the AC/Stam/SBV theorycraft.

Nicki
08-16-2007, 09:50 AM
my view is it is rage negative as nice as a stun is i would not get any rage without being hit or atleast that is my understanding.

Graalsemk
08-17-2007, 07:30 AM
Improved revenge is nice for farming, heroics and some raid trash.

But farming, heroics and raid trash aren't difficult.

If you are MTing raid bosses you should be specing for maximum efficiency for that role, and when mting raid bosses improved revenge does nothing to help you.

Link
08-17-2007, 07:40 AM
I see your from the website TankingTips.com - A guide to tanking as a Warrior in World of Warcraft (http://www.tankingtips.com) so i assume you have seen the engineers in "The EYe" that throw boms to the raid doing freakin loads of damage. Imp revenge is a saver here. It stuns randomly wich will increase the stuntime of that mob.

It can help with those guys and it can hurt with those guys. I'm not sure how you handle them but we keep them sheeped and save them for last. Once the sheep is broken we have rogues/paladins keeping stuns up. Those stuns last a long time.

Lets say I get lucky with my revenge stun proc, I can yell out on vent "hey guys, that stun is mine!" But in reality all I did was overwrite one of their 6 second stuns with a shorter one.. and yes, he breaks out at the end of my short one.

I don't like improved revenge. I suppose if you're short on rogues or something and you really need the stuns it would come in handy, but I can't see wasting 3 talent points for this rare scenario. Those mobs are the only ones that are stunnable where a stun is really that helpful. You're using 3 points for those mobs and I think theres a total of 5 of them in the instance.

I only end game tank, we don't even touch Karazhan anymore.. everything is immune. Let's face is, the ability had its uses... battleguard sartura... Cthun... but those times are long gone.

thugthedum
08-17-2007, 11:25 AM
Remember how hard it is when a rogue opens on a mob with cheap shot. Imp Revenge gets to do this for you all the time. I'm going to throw something out there that a lot of people might disagree with...

Stuns are bad.

There I said it. Many of you have been thinking it, experienced it, probably hidden it away in the back of your mind afraid to say it. But wait you say...

Concussion Blow is Amazing!

When do you use this ability? When you NEED to stun something. So you've lost agg and taunt is down okay then you stun. But that's not what Imp Revenge does... it stuns when you don't want to and it's not reliable enough to stun when you NEED it to.

So why do people love Imp Revenge?

It's a great "storyteller" ability. It creates those situations where omg he's going to kill me and I randomly stunned him so I won! I'm not interested in a great story, I want a consistent ability. Imp Revenge is inconsistent.

Basically, 90% of the time you don't want or need a stun and when you do, you already have Concussion Blow. Imp Revenge is a grinding ability and that's about all imo.

/nod

Stun = bad

Crimsonstorm
08-20-2007, 01:50 PM
I think Imp Revenge is bad, because:

1) Bascially nothing that is stunnable can kill me, so I dont need to reduce the damage from those things.
2) It is not reliable as an interrupt. I want to use concussion blow or shield bash to interrupt.
3) It can randomly stun mobs I am fighting while I am trying to move them, which is annoying.
4) It results in less rage generation, and thus can lead to losing aggro. Worst of all, the mobs who are usually stunnable are small mobs in multimob group pulls. These are the pulls where I am usually the most rage starved, and most suseptible to losing aggro on secondary mobs.


So basically, it doesnt do anything good, I dont care about preventing damage from the types of mobs it works on, and it can result in aggro loss.
Imp Bloodrage, Imp Sunder, TM, and Imp Shield Wall are probably all better than it.

I cant see myself tanking with less than 12 in arms (imp tclap/imp heroic/anger management), so I dont have a lot of prot talents to throw away on stuff like imp revenge.


imo, Imp Revenge is a pvp talent. Its not a pve talent and shouldnt be taken for tanking.

Jadye
08-21-2007, 06:44 AM
I used to have Improved Revenge. I used to freak out when the big "Immune" scrolled up and try to figure out what I was doing that he was immune to.

Signu
08-21-2007, 07:03 AM
I used to have Improved Revenge. I used to freak out when the big "Immune" scrolled up and try to figure out what I was doing that he was immune to.

That is how I know not to bother with a concussion blow or war stomp (if something goes wrong)