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Trū
08-15-2007, 01:32 AM
There are a lot of talents I see being passed over in various builds.
In some cases these choices seem pretty clear, but I'm a bit hazy on a few of the others...

Improved Revenge - 45% chance to stun
Improved Shield Bash - Silence for 3 seconds!
Iron Will - 15% Resistance to null-tank mode
Unbridled Wrath - Extra rage per swing?

There are probably others, but those are the ones that I can think of right now.

I realize that points available to spend makes these choices less appealing to many people in comparison to other picks. I'd like to hear some reasoning though from veterans beyond 'It's not as worthwhile' or something similar. For instance, I never see Iron Will included in builds, but it seems very good to me.

Admittedly I have no experience in the 50+ game, and I'm two patches behind in current gameplay while my computer gets replaced...but I'd like to understand ^.^

- Trū

Anchor
08-15-2007, 05:48 AM
It really depends where you are in the game. There's a big difference tanking lets say a normal five man to tanking a 25 man progression raid.

Imp Revenge and Imp shield bash are great for the lower level stuff, but once you get into karazhan and beyond most mobs are immune to these effects.

Iron will is great if you are an Orc that already receives stun resistance as part of their racial, but otherwise investing five points for only 15% stun resist isn't worth it compared to the other talents that are available.

Unbridled wrath is similar to iron will in that for the point investment you get a mediocre return compared to the other talents available at that level.

Those are at least my reasons, I hope some others will chime in with their own responses.

Nicki
08-15-2007, 07:31 AM
Improved Revenge - 45% chance to stun

If the mob is stunned you dont get hit, therefore you get no rage.

Improved Shield Bash - Silence for 3 seconds!

It is a prot pvp talent in PvE most things are immune to 'silence'. it would be good in heroics though.

Iron Will - 15% Resistance to null-tank mode

Is a pvp talent again there are much better things to take and this is only a chance.

Unbridled Wrath - Extra rage per swing?

Is ok but if you have the space for 10 in fury imp demo shout is better for tanking and duel wield imo. UW is good for 2h builds.

Wartorn
08-15-2007, 11:32 AM
I <3 Imp. Revenge, but it has no place in 25 man content. I might spec back into this for ZA.

I <3 Imp SB, but it has no place in 25 man content. The only reason I have it is to lock down healers for my few hundred arena points.

The other skills have nice utility, but those points are better spent elsewhere.

Kazeyonoma
08-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Imp revenge is nice, for farming, and heroics, but in raids, most are stun immune, AND if ind myself rage starved if i stun several times in a row =P

Imp Shield Bash, again as others, is wasted since most raid mobs are immune.

Iron Will: I'm orc and I still don't grab it. for 5 points, that could go elsewhere, its just not worth it, not that many bosses do a consistent knockback to get this and lose say... cruelty.

Unbridled Wrath - truly only shines on DW builds because the chance for rage is per hit. this means DW has highest chance to get more rage consistently to make it worth while. with sword and board I've tried this. and it just didn't pan out well, anger management is only 1 talent point and yields a more consistent amount of rage with sw/bo on.

Trū
08-15-2007, 10:53 PM
Improved Shield Bash and Improved Revenge - Would these be better talents for a tank levelling up towards 70? For soloing content (Caster control for instance) Since my rage can come from Bloodrage and hitting the opponent I'm not sure I'll really be rage-starved so much as rage-dieted.

Iron Will - So I understand then, that the 15&#37; doesn't really provide enough returns in the course of gameplay? Is this because you don't get stunned/charmed that often, or when charm/stun attacks occur, 15% isn't enough to see you through without getting affected (except very rarely)?

Unbridled Wrath - So there's no scaling to make this cost-effective for weapon choices that are one- or two-handed? That's kind of unfortunate. >.>

Thanks so much for the feedback so far! ^.^

Wartorn
08-15-2007, 11:49 PM
UW procs more with slower weapons. But it's still not worth the points, IMO.

Trū
08-16-2007, 01:24 AM
I'm also curious as to why I see so little support for Improved Taunt. What are the reasons for letting that one slide?

Anchor
08-16-2007, 05:54 AM
From my own experience i've only spec'd into imp taunt once. And that was for the drakes in bwl where we would have to set up a taunt rotation. But for normal tanking i really don't taunt unless a dps'er started hitting too early or for some reason i lost aggro. Again in 25 man content a lot of mobs are un- tauntable, so really the this talent might be good for five mans and heroics but once you get into kara its time to find another place to put those two points.

To answer your other question imp revenge is great for soloing and grinding. Imp Sbash is pretty good as well. And yeah you won't notice 15&#37; stun resist, at least i never did.

Diomedes
08-16-2007, 07:08 AM
I don't know the new formula for UW, if someone knows it, I'd _LOVE_ to get it.

Under the old formula, it was 40% chance for 1 rage after 5 talents.

Assuming you're using a King's defender:

Weapon speed 1.6-> (x seconds / 1.6 )*.4 = Expected Rage from UW.

Take 30 seconds as an example: 7.5 expected rage from UW.

Now, compare spending 6 points in arms to 5 in fury and nabbing AM, Imp T Clap, Imp HS (some of which you might be getting anyhow).

In 30 seconds you generate 10 rage (actual not expected).

So unless they changed the formula, UW is not a talent that shines in tanking compared to what you could be getting.

As for Imp Taunt, I specced it for bug family and Sartura after some app tank showed me up on vem. I've finally got around to ditching it as where my guild is currently doesn't have a fight that really lets it shine. YMMV.

-Dio

EDIT: It should be noted that it would take a 1.2 speed weapon to match AM in rage generation, and that's if you hit *EVERY TIME*, once you factor in misses, parries, dodges, etc, UW is a lot weaker than AM. That is, again, unless they really buffed the formula.... WTB: new UW mechanics >.>

Diomedes
08-16-2007, 08:29 AM
Hmm, just realized I forgot devastate. I'm going to assume you can sneak 1 devastate into a 6 second cycle. I know a lot of people assume 2, but for whatever reason I typically find myself only getting about 1 due to server lag, refreshing demo/t-clap, etc.

(x seconds / 1.6 )*.4 + x/6*.4 = Expected Rage from UW

Now in 30 seconds: 7.5 + 2 = 9.5 If you can sneak in 2: 11.5. So in the "I never miss" scenario if you can get 2 devastates off in your 6 second cycle then you come out slightly ahead.

I still feel that spending the points in arms to get a giant stack of abilities rather than just 1 is a better investment.

-Dio


EDIT: Unbridled Wrath - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Unbridled_Wrath) seems to think UW doesn't work on instants, in which case my first post was right. TBH, I'd love to get some really solid info on this talent, it still feels weak to me.