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Armstrong
08-07-2007, 03:19 PM
A preliminary view from the tanks' perspective

With patch 2.2 comes a new weapon enchant of interest to melee classes:



Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner
Soulbound
Requires Enchanting (375)
Use: Learn how to permanently enchant a
Melee Weapon to occasionally ignore 840 of
your enemy's armor. Requires a level 35 or
higher item.




Is Executioner better than Mongoose?

That's the question on everyone's mind right now. One this document attempts to answer, based on the limited information available at this time. Since the proc rate and buff duration remain unknown, but given that the formula will be obtained from a 10-man raid zone in the same fashion as Mongoose, we will assume that they are the same as Mongoose and compare the two enchants based on that assumption.



What we know

Based on its description, Executioner has no mitigation or avoidance component, so Mongoose wins in that regards. However, Executioner promises a steady damage increase that scales based on the target's armor, affecting all damage dealt as soon as it procs. In comparison, Mongoose's damage component revolves around an increase in the player's chance to crit, which makes it somewhat less reliable.



Mongoose DPS (threat value)

The overall damage increase on Mongoose comes from a combination of crit from agility and haste rating.

The crit% increase is a direct percentage increase to overall damage. With Mongoose alone, warriors get a 3.636% increased crit chance from the 120 agility buff. In most raid situations where BoKings is available, Mongoose becomed 132 agility, or a 4% increased crit chance.

For warriors the haste rating only affects auto-attack and Heroic Strike. Given that the availability of rage directly affects warriors' ability usage, the proportion of a warrior's overall damage that can attributed to HS and white damage can vary quite a bit depending on the situation.

For simplicity's sake, and because I can attest to this being a realistic value based on WWS reports of my own damage breakdown by ability, I will base the math in this document on the assumption that 50% of a warrior's damage comes from HS and white damage in a raid tanking situation. So with a 2% attack speed increase, this translates into a 1% damage increase while the Mongoose buff is active.

So we end up with a 4% damage increase from crit and a 1% damage increase from haste, for a total 5% DPS increase. Protection warriors get no crit-based synergy between their talents and abilities, so the math pretty much ends here.



Executioner DPS (threat value)

For detailed information on how armor works in WoW, see Satrina's guide on Mitigation, Armour, Diminishing Returns (http://evilempireguild.org/guides/diminishing.php).

Armor reduces all incoming physical damage by a fixed percentage. As armor value increases, the increase in mitigation is subject to diminishing returns. What this implies in the case of the Executioner enchant is that various armor values between one target and the next will each yield a different increase in damage to the wielder. The enchant will have a more significant effect when fighting a target with low armor (think Shade of Aran) than when fighting a target with high armor (i.e. Void Reaver).

The target's level also has a direct effect on mitigation from armor. A level 73 mob with 10000 armor will mitigate less damage than a level 70 mob with 10000 armor. What this means is that the 840 armor reduction from Executioner will have less of an effect on a level 73 mob than than it will on a level 70 mob with the same armor value.

To find out how much DPS Executioner will net you based on your target's armor, you would find the target's initial mitigation, then find the target's mitigation with the 840 armor reduction from the enchant, then compare the two.


For example, on a fairly well armored level 73 mob at 10 000 armor:

Mitigation = 10000 / (10000 + (467.5 * 73 + 22167.5)) = 45.537%


After reducing that mob's armor by 840:

M = 9160 / (9160 + (467.5 * 73 + 22167.5)) = 43.371%


Calculating the damage increase:

100 / (100 - 43.371) * (100 - 45.537) = 103.977, or a 3.977% DPS increase.


While not entirely impossible, it's fairly difficult to find the exact armor a mob has, but we do know from experience that it can vary quite a bit. This is where the most important difference between Executioner and Mongoose becomes visible. Using the mitigation formula linked above, here's a list of results against a level 73 target for various armor values:


10000 (45.537%) - 840 = 9160 (43.371%) = 3.977% dps increase

7355 (38.080%) - 840 = 6515 (35.264%) = 4.548% dps increase - Void Reaver *

5000 (29.481%) - 840 = 4160 (25.806%) = 5.211% dps increase

2990 (20%) - 840 = 2150 (15.237%) = 5.953% dps increase **

1500 (11.144%) - 840 = 660 (5.229%) = 6.656% dps increase



The DPS comparison

The examples above show that in the lower armor ranges, Executioner provides a superior damage output compared to Mongoose. Against highly armored targets Executioner falls slightly behind.

At first glance, most tanks may decide that the minor damage increase from Executioner does not make a good case for the loss of the mitigation and avoidance provided by Mongoose, which is a perfectly fair argument. However, when it comes to threat generation, Executioner does provide an advantage over Mongoose. Executioner provides threat that can be qualified as steady, or reliable threat. Obviously, only as reliable as its proc rate. But given that Mongoose is also proc-based, we can ignore that aspect of both enchant for the purpose of comparing the two.

When Mongoose procs, it will give you added threat if you get a crit. Over the 15 second duration, you may be lucky, or you may no be so lucky. You may get a Shield Slam crit right as Mongoose procs. Or you may get a string of dodges, parries, some glancing blows and a couple of white crits.

When Executioner procs on the other hand, the buff gained will immediately increase all your damage by a fixed percentage. It may not feel as exciting as extra crits, but you know that the added damage and threat will be affecting all your attacks over the duration of the buff. Another minor, yet interesting benefit from Executioner is that even glancing blows will deal more damage, something that can't be reproduced by an increase in crit%.

So even in situations where Executioner puts out a lower overall damage increase than Mongoose, it may remain a preffered choice for some tanks due to the steadier nature of its damage increase.



So which one should I use?

If you only have one good tanking weapon, Mongoose will give you the most all around benefit due to its avoidance / mitigation component.

However, most experienced tanks will tell you to carry multiple tanking "sets", for maxing out avoidance, effective health, and threat, depending on each particular encounter. Ideally you should have a few weapons to match those various applications. For example, a typical early raid setup might be to use a Sun Eater enchanted with Mongoose for max avoidance, and a King's Defender with Executioner for max threat. Pick a different one for each fight, or swap them mid-fight based on the mechanics of the encounter.

In the end the decision between Executioner and Mongoose should be whether you want Executioner's more predictable, steady threat on each proc, or Mongoose's extra mitigation and avoidance, and somewhat less reliable short-term threat.



Notes:

* : Wartorn indicates here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles-guides/32113-executioner-vs-mongoose-preliminary-view-tanks-perspective-3.html#post38456) that Void Reaver has 40% mitigation, or 7973 armor after 5 Sunders. Also see follow up discussion here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles-guides/32113-executioner-vs-mongoose-preliminary-view-tanks-perspective-3.html#post38485).

** : 2990 armor value (20% mitigation) included as a reference based on Ciderhelm's reply here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/theory-articles-guides/32113-executioner-vs-mongoose-preliminary-view-tanks-perspective.html#post38383).

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 03:21 PM
I edited the title for spelling and the color of the enchant title. Nice post! (have to read it now!)

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 03:36 PM
BoP enchanting recipes from raid zones are usually blue items.

Formula: Enchant Weapon - Mongoose
Formula: Enchant Weapon - Soulfrost
Formula: Enchant Weapon - Sunfire


And according to Blizzcon 2007 : Changes mega-list ! (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=630.0), so is Executioner. ;)

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 03:39 PM
It's definitely blue, but the default Blue color won't give enough contrast on the frontpage given the blue background. That's all!

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 03:41 PM
Oh I see. Good call.

veneretio
08-07-2007, 03:50 PM
Some comments:

1. This article would have significantly more impact if you gave us even approximate armor values of real bosses so we could gain some perspective. What kind of mob has 10,000 armor? 5,000? 1,500?

2. Reliability only matters in the short term. In a long fight, chance averages out overtime. (ie. 120 agility 50% is identical to 60 agility 100% of the time) To me this breaks down a lot of your comparison.

3. You accent the word "all" in regards to the armor reduction as if to imply that Increased Crit doesn't affect "all" abilities whereas in reality it does.

4. One interesting gem in the middle of your comparison is Glancing Blows. I'd like to see you go into more detail about why -armor is better than +crit and what kind of difference we will get as a result.

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 04:00 PM
1) Most bosses begin with a rough maximum of 35% Damage Reduction from Armor (normally lower). The concept here is that raid bosses are generally scaled by Health, not Armor, to best balance cross-class raid DPS. Recalling some very rough numbers from EJ, after full debuffs most bosses are around 20% Damage Reduction from Armor. I'd wager my memory is off on this, but chances are you'll rarely be fighting bosses with even 5k+ Armor.

2) Reliability in the short term is reliability. While it's true that long-term Threat is important, and you are correct on that, a tank is most likely to lose aggro in the first 60 seconds of a fight.

3) Crit doesn't affect all abilities at all times; instead, it only affects abilities when the chance occurs. The chance is constant, but the benefit itself is not applied to every single swing.

Wartorn
08-07-2007, 04:03 PM
Nice post.

I think I'll go back and try to calculate approximate boss armor based on WWS's when I have more time.

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Nice post.

I think I'll go back and try to calculate approximate boss armor based on WWS's when I have more time.

This would be immensely helpful to the forums.

Wartorn
08-07-2007, 04:09 PM
It will be pretty rough, especially with my current work schedule, but I'll give it the old college try.

veneretio
08-07-2007, 04:33 PM
1) Most bosses begin with a rough maximum of 35% Damage Reduction from Armor (normally lower). The concept here is that raid bosses are generally scaled by Health, not Armor, to best balance cross-class raid DPS. Recalling some very rough numbers from EJ, after full debuffs most bosses are around 20% Damage Reduction from Armor. I'd wager my memory is off on this, but chances are you'll rarely be fighting bosses with even 5k+ Armor.

2) Reliability in the short term is reliability. While it's true that long-term Threat is important, and you are correct on that, a tank is most likely to lose aggro in the first 60 seconds of a fight.

3) Crit doesn't affect all abilities at all times; instead, it only affects abilities when the chance occurs. The chance is constant, but the benefit itself is not applied to every single swing.
Good to know about point #1. Would be nice to have that in the article. #2 I can't say that I'm sold on and putting it that way, it just seems like the major strength of the article has to be built on more. #3 seems like we are arguing semantics so party on ;)

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 04:34 PM
Back to blue! I need to update it again because that color just isn't working, but for now I need to step out for a few minutes.

Armstrong, in the meantime I've posted this to the frontpage of the website. I had to shorten the title in the thread to do this without taking up two lines in the header (I added the second part as a subtitle in the thread).

Crimsonstorm
08-07-2007, 04:52 PM
I feel there is no significant difference in reliability of threat increase between mongoose and executioner.

There are two aspects to threat generation: initial aggro, and threat over time.

NEITHER one is reliable for early threat generation. For the purposes of initial aggro, neither one helps. (Pretty much only hit rating/weapon skill help).

Both will increase threat over time. Mongoose will do it in big chunks with a crit, and executioner in smaller chunks, but on the scale of building up threat over the course of a fight, and holding it over the dpsers who are initially waiting and then laying in, both are reliable.

Mongoose gives close to 5% more dps when it procs. (Plus dodge + armor)

Executioner must give MORE than 5% more dps to have any value for tanking. And no, 6% wouldnt cut it for me, I'm not giving up 4% dodge and 240 armor for just 1% more dmg, in any tanking situation. I can make much more favorable swaps than that by putting on a dps piece.

It would have to be at least in the 8% range for me to consider it probably.
Since it doesnt even reach that level of value on low armor mobs, imo it has no value for tanking, if these calculations are correct.

It probably has value for dps against mobs that are not heavily armored.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
Ciderhelm covers the value of steady, reliable threat vs. irregular threat under the http://www.tankspot.com/forums/hold-line-guide-pre-tbc/31963-attack-power-crits-steady-irregular-dps.html section of Hold the Line.

The analogy would be having to choose between block value and agility, or between hit or crit, or between 3 points in Imp HS and 3 points in Cruelty. Over the long term they all increase threat to various degrees, but the reality is that short-term reliability is a significant factor in many situations. At least in my experience. :) Enough that a reliable gain in the short term can be well worth a small loss in the long run.

In that respect, the fact that Executioner is proc based does make it less reliable than Major Striking for example. However when comparing it strictly to Mongoose the proc aspect can effectively be ignored when it is assumed that the proc chance and duration are the same.

That said, thanks for the suggestions, I plan on spending a little more time on this tomorrow and including a few of them in the document.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 05:43 PM
on the scale of building up threat over the course of a fight, and holding it over the dpsers who are initially waiting and then laying in,
Actually this caught my attention while re-reading your post. I don't have time to write a novel about it, but that right there demonstrates one of the most important differences between the two schools of thought in this thread so far. Reliable aggro is what allows your DPS to lay in immediately. This is a big deal. Probably a discussion for a different thread though. :)

And yes it only partially applies to the Executioner vs Mongoose discussion due to them being proc-based.

Anyway, got a raid to start. Talk to you tomorrow. :)

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 06:17 PM
Two questions I'd bring up for possible discussion.

1) Could we determine the chance of a crit derived from a proc of Mongoose on a per-minute average?

2) Does anyone have any evidence that this actually shares the PPM rate of either Crusader or Mongoose? (I'm kind of an ass for asking this given I'm the one who suggested it in the first place)

Paruhdox
08-08-2007, 05:29 AM
You are also forgetting the ammount of threat the proc it self generates, if it generates any at all... I would think the procs debuff would have a decent amount of treat to it.

Armstrong
08-08-2007, 07:36 AM
1) Could we determine the chance of a crit derived from a proc of Mongoose on a per-minute average?

Based on the way I understand how proc-based effects work, here's the math involved. I'm also assuming a level 73 target and that Shield Slam doesn't proc weapon enchants. Lastly this is being done under limited caffeine supply and limited sleep time, so glaring mistakes and omissions are not exactly unexpected... ;)



Chance to proc a "1 proc per minute" effect (Crusader, Mongoose) using a 1.6 speed weapon:

1.6 / 60 = 2.667% chance to proc on any successful hit



White damage & Heroic Strike per minute:

60 / 1.6 = 37.5 swings



Global cooldowns per minute: *

60 / 1.5 = 40



Substract global cooldowns spent on Demo Shout (2), Thunderclap(2), Battle / Commanding Shout (0.5) & Shield Slam (10): **

40 - (2 + 2 + 0.5 + 10) = 25.5



Total actual attacks

37.5 + 25.5 = 63 attacks



Substract Miss (8%), Dodge (5.6%?), Parry (5.6%?), Block (5.6%?). ***

63 - (63 * (0.08 + 0.056 + 0.056 + 0.056)) = 47.376 successful attacks



Average number of procs per minute:

47.376 * 0.02667 = 1.263 procs per minute.



Percentage of the time the 15 sec Mongoose buff is present:

(15 * 1.263) / 60 * 100 = 31.584% uptime



Overall crit chance attributable to Mongoose (4%) alone:

4 * 0.31584 = 1.263%



There you have it. 1.263% actual crit chance increase from Mongoose.



Just for the sake of completeness, the 2% Haste effect applied to 50% of overall damage with 31.584% uptime becomes:

2 * 0.5 * 0.31584 = 0.31584%



So an additional 0.316% damage increase overall. For what it's worth, this also translates into an equal increase to the chance of Mongoose proccing.



The less-than-scientific aspects of this analysis:

* Lag and reaction time will affect the use of global cooldowns negatively, bringing the final result down some

** Shouts and TC will likely be refreshed a little more often than their exact duration, and some resists will occur. Final result goes down some more.

*** I'm really not too certain about the figures for mob avoidance. Those will also vary from player to player depending on the amount of Hit Rating and Weapon Skill involved. Could bring the end result either up or down.

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 09:37 AM
Looks good except for the miss percentage. Did VR last night with 5.5% hit and for the 3rd time I observed ~3% miss rate. At this point I'm going to say it wasn't a fluke.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 10:11 AM
So when mongoose procs its up for 15 seconds.

Thats 9.375 autoattacks and 10gcds. Lets say 8 of those GCDs you use an attack, we'll say 17 total attacks.


The chance that the 4% crit from mongoose gives at least 1 crit is:
1 - (.96 ^ 17) = 1 - .499, or 50%

You'll get an average of .68 crits due to the mongoose proc.
You get a 50% chance of at least 1 crit due to the increase %crit, each time it procs.


When Executioner procs youll get a few% more dps, on every hit. Somewhere around 5-6% it seems. When mongoose procs youll get a 50% chance of double damage on at least 1 hit, with an average of .68 extra crits. It is an average of 4% dps increase from this. You also get a fixed ~1% dps increase from the haste. You also get 4.4% dodge and 240 armor.

imo, aside from the first few seconds of the battle, all I care about is average threat over time. Neither one helps with initial threat. Both help with average threat and damage over time.

If what I care about is only the damage and threat generation of the enchant, then the 5% average dps increase overtime from mongoose is barely worse than the 5-6% average dps increase over time from executioner.

But thats not all I care about. I'm very willing to sacrifice 1% average dps during the proc for 4.4% dodge and 240 armor!

Mongoose is much better for tanking imo, (unless the executioner procs more often or something)

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 10:13 AM
Now lets look at it from the persepctive of a dps warrior with Deep Wounds, Impale, and Blood frenzy or flurry.

They get more value from crits.

Say executioner is a 6% increase.
Mongoose is 4% crit which is 4.8% more dps with impale. And more procs of their crit based abilities. Throw in the 2% haste (1% damage?), and youre at about 5.8% dps and more procs. Thats better than executioner, I would think.

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 10:25 AM
On a somewhat related note, I have rough armor rating for VR after 5 sunders.

The average unmitigated damage on revenge hits for 460. My revenges hit VR for 275 over 22 hits. The other warrior's revenges hit for 277 over 31 hits. Let's just split the difference and say we hit VR for 276 on average. That's a 40% damage reduction or ~8K armor @ 5 sunders.

Haedes
08-08-2007, 10:32 AM
How about a practical application view. Take the Gruul fight for example; the MT would probably prefer Mongoose for the extra armor and dodge cushion, the OT could go with Executioner as a more steady threat tool. This assumes the preliminary math is accurate and the correct use of the debuff with Revenge/Shield Slam. Just like gear sets or talent specs, certain enchants are applicable to the role of the player within a raid.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 01:22 PM
Executioner is effectively mongoose without the dodge or armor, imo.

If the proc rate is the same that is.

Armstrong
08-08-2007, 02:58 PM
On a somewhat related note, I have rough armor rating for VR after 5 sunders.

The average unmitigated damage on revenge hits for 460. My revenges hit VR for 275 over 22 hits. The other warrior's revenges hit for 277 over 31 hits. Let's just split the difference and say we hit VR for 276 on average. That's a 40% damage reduction or ~8K armor @ 5 sunders.
Good call on using Revenge to figure out armor Wartorn.

Interestingly, on our last VR kill (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hx3tag53rcoiq&ab=64) (and counting a few failed pulls :P ), I end up with an average 292 damage for 61 successful Revenges between myself and another warrior, including crits /2 (neither one of us has Impale). Mine averaged 294 and his 289. No Hemo rogue in raid either. This translates into 36.5% mitigation.

I wonder where the 16 point difference comes from. The only things I can come up with is that either Sunder wasn't up quite as much for you guys, or the sample size is just too small?

I guess for now I'll just average your numbers and mine and use that in the article.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Higher crit rate maybe?

You need to find the average of the non critting revenges.

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 03:20 PM
It's possible sunders weren't up, though I'm pretty good about keeping sunders up and active.

...

Ok, so was digging through a bunch of WWS's and I found 290 revenges are on the high end and 275 on the low end. Maybe we are better off taking an average value, lets say 283?

veneretio
08-08-2007, 03:28 PM
It definitely would be the crit thats mucking up the results.

How bout this formula so we can salvage the data...

Average Damage = Crit% * 2 * Revenge base * Reduction + non-crit% * Revenge base * Reduction

So let x = Reduction with 15% to crit.

292 = .15 * 2 * 460 * x + .85 * 460 * x
292 = 138x + 391x
292 = 529x
x = 0.551984877

So just replace .15 and .85 with whatever your crit was during void reaver and you can get an approximation.

Does that math seem about right?
Edit: I think it is except the Reduction will be 1 minus the resulting X value. So ~45% reduction for Void Reaver.

Armstrong
08-08-2007, 03:33 PM
Higher crit rate maybe?

You need to find the average of the non critting revenges.
Or count the crits for half their value, as I mentionned above. :)




Maybe we are better off taking an average value, lets say 283?

Yeah I added your averages and ours and divided by the total number of hits and ended up with 285. This takes VR's mitigation down to 38.080%, or 7355 armor.

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 03:37 PM
Something is funky with your WWS.

You have 290 avg revenge hits for 24 hits(21 hits and 3 crits). That only comes out to 6960 damage, not 7900 damage.

Edit : Nm, I was wrong. Apparently the 290 only includes normal hits. So the actual math is something like this.

290*21 + crit damage = 7900

Edit2 : So yeah, your normal revenges were hitting for 15 more damage than my normal revenges.

Armstrong
08-08-2007, 03:49 PM
It definitely would be the crit thats mucking up the results.

How bout this formula so we can salvage the data...

Average Damage = Crit% * 2 * Revenge base * Reduction + non-crit% * Revenge base * Reduction

So let x = Reduction with 15% to crit.

292 = .15 * 2 * 460 * x + .85 * 460 * x
292 = 138x + 391x
292 = 529x
x = 0.551984877

So just replace .15 and .85 with whatever your crit was during void reaver and you can get an approximation. Does that math seem about right?
I counted crits from my WWS for half their damage in the first place, so no correction needed there. I also ended up with a higher average than Wartorn, which tells me he probably didn't count crits at all, since WWS lists them separately and doesn't count them in the "average" value displayed in the summary.

So far I'm pretty sure crits have nothing to do with it.

Armstrong
08-08-2007, 03:52 PM
Something is funky with your WWS.

You have 290 avg revenge hits for 24 hits(21 hits and 3 crits). That only comes out to 6960 damage, not 7900 damage.
Exactly what I'm saying above. If you hover above the "average" value, it tells you that it's not counting crits. This is probably to avoid things like Impale to offset the value of normal hits.

psychostomp
08-09-2007, 01:03 AM
what i am eager to find out is if executioner would stack with armor reducing trinkets if so potentially u could reduce armor ~1450 with icon of unyielding courage. considering your numbers for VR that would drop his AC down to ~6300 knocking his % reduction down quite a bit.

Also when comparing execut. to mongoose for DPS. purposes the proc rat will generally be higher as not as many gcd's will be spent on debuffing Altho this will tend to lead to higher uptime for both enchants rather than favoring 1 over the other.

Wartorn
08-09-2007, 09:14 AM
Ok, did gruul last night.

Between our WWS and some of the WWS's I've foraged through, it looks like revenge hits for 315-320. I'm going to assume Blood Frenzy is up 75% of the time, so it drops revenge damage to ~308 damage. That 33% mitigation from armor or ~5900 armor @ 5 sunders.

Horacio
08-12-2007, 10:01 AM
Being that ZA (where this drops) is confirmed for 2.3, we likely have a while to consider. For myself, I'm still using Thunderfury so Executioner probably would retrun less benefit as alot of my damage (and threat) is based on procs and SS damage. White damage is abyssmal. In addition, the haste boost = a few more TF procs. Granted, I'm stubborn and KD still sits in my bank growing rust. It will definitely get Executioner.

Ciderhelm
08-12-2007, 10:30 AM
Was discussing this in vent last night, idea came up that it's not a buff at all and it only applies to that particularly swing of that weapon. Would have to have a pretty high proc rate if that were the case.

We'll see.

psychostomp
08-12-2007, 02:56 PM
idk cider i foresee a more utb like affect 10-15 seconds of goodness if it turns out to be a 1hit wonder then no one will want it. unless it has an amazing proc rate which i honestly doubt.

Armstrong
08-12-2007, 08:56 PM
Besides, would that mean Shield Slam never benefits from it?

Armstrong
10-15-2007, 12:22 PM
This may be old news, but Wowhead now has Executioner in its database.

[Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33307)

Executioner enchant with mats listing (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=42974)

"Executioner" self-buff that causes "Your attacks [to] ignore 840 of your enemies' armor for 15 sec." (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=42976)


For what it's worth, this confirms one half of the theorycrafting in this thread: the enchant procs a self-buff, much like crusader or mongoose, which applies to all attacks made while it is active. The other important piece of data Wowhead doesn't give us is the proc rate. Has anyone had the chance to play with it on the PTR?

Belak
10-16-2007, 09:18 AM
According to the comments on Wowhead from the ptr, the proc rate is similar to Mongoose and it does NOT stack if you have 2 weapons enchanted with it.

The glow effect:
YB_oujvDGzk

The proc effect:
_50JgoBw-vo

brain9h
10-16-2007, 09:55 AM
Seems good for PvP, clothies have super low armor values, maximizing the benefits

For 300+ resilience arena matches, a warrior with mace spec already suffers from a low crit rate. I'd seriously consider getting replacing mongoose for executioner in that case, it is far more effective to increase DPS against cloth, and probably leather as well

Ukyo
10-16-2007, 10:06 AM
I've done some duels with the enchant, and it barely procs, but when it procs... i can get some serious burst. But trading it for Savagery seems like a waste. For PvE purposes works awesome on the MH

Herem
10-17-2007, 11:37 AM
Here are boss armor values if this wasn't posted already. didn't read complete thread.

Serpentshrine Cavern:
Hydross the Unstable: 7700
The Lurker Below: 7700
Leotheras the Blind: 7700
Fathom-Lord Karathress 6200
Morogrim Tidewalker: 7700
Lady Vashj: 6200

Tempest Keep:
Void Reaver: 8800
High Astromancer Solarian: 6200
Al'ar: 7700
Kael'thas Sunstrider: 6200

Hyjal Summit:
Rage Winterchill: 6200
Anetheron: 6200
Kaz'rogal: 6200
Azgalor: 6200
Archimonde: 6200

Black Temple:
High Warlord Naj'entus: 7700
Supremus: 7700
Shade of Akama: 7700
Teron Gorefiend: 6200
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 7700
Reliquary of Souls:
- Essence of Suffering: 0
- Essence of Desire: 7700
- Essence of Anger: 7700
Mother Shahraz: 6200
Illidari Council:
- Gathios the Shatterer: 6200

Premed
10-17-2007, 11:48 AM
so for warriors this is a definite replacement for mongoose?

Brickhuase
10-19-2007, 09:17 AM
Seems good for PvP, clothies have super low armor values, maximizing the benefits

For 300+ resilience arena matches, a warrior with mace spec already suffers from a low crit rate. I'd seriously consider getting replacing mongoose for executioner in that case, it is far more effective to increase DPS against cloth, and probably leather as well

Good for clothies poor if your bursting down a pally/shaman/druid/warrior there is definately a benefit when attacking clothies though. For this reason i was actually thinking 2 weapons and weapon swapping, one with savagery and one with executioner. Overall i think if i had to pick one pvp enchant i would stick with savagery personaly, i've had mongoose on my stormherald and it failed to impress me. If i really need to i can replicate the proc with 2 sunders, but i cant pull AP out of the air.

psychostomp
10-24-2007, 04:51 PM
question as to pve dps would this outperform savagery if 33/28?

Aelvain
10-25-2007, 04:36 AM
Here are boss armor values if this wasn't posted already. didn't read complete thread.

Serpentshrine Cavern:
Hydross the Unstable: 7700
The Lurker Below: 7700
Leotheras the Blind: 7700
Fathom-Lord Karathress 6200
Morogrim Tidewalker: 7700
Lady Vashj: 6200

Tempest Keep:
Void Reaver: 8800
High Astromancer Solarian: 6200
Al'ar: 7700
Kael'thas Sunstrider: 6200

Hyjal Summit:
Rage Winterchill: 6200
Anetheron: 6200
Kaz'rogal: 6200
Azgalor: 6200
Archimonde: 6200

Black Temple:
High Warlord Naj'entus: 7700
Supremus: 7700
Shade of Akama: 7700
Teron Gorefiend: 6200
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 7700
Reliquary of Souls:
- Essence of Suffering: 0
- Essence of Desire: 7700
- Essence of Anger: 7700
Mother Shahraz: 6200
Illidari Council:
- Gathios the Shatterer: 6200

Where do these numbers come from? Could you please post a source?

Herem
10-25-2007, 09:29 AM
Sorry about that meant to do that, but I do not have the link. I believe they are from the EJ forums somewhere. Had them in spread sheet form a while ago. I'm pretty sure they are correct.

Meia
10-25-2007, 10:09 AM
Wait... It doesn't stack? That would be TERRIBLY disappointing.

Ciderhelm
11-15-2007, 06:29 AM
Bumping an old topic here. This was linked on the WoW-US forums. Here's a response to the thread I gave. Let's keep the Mongoose/Executioner discussion in a single thread. :)


Keep in mind that Executioner for a tanking weapon is in an environment where you've already stacked five Sunder Armors and often a Curse of Recklessness. Also keep in mind that part of the Mongoose benefit is in the form of Haste, which has zero effect on your Shield Slam (or other abilities).

Procs and crits are relatively reliable in terms of occurrence. What is a lot less likely to give you a benefit is a crit derived from a proc -- in this case, a Critical Strike occurring as a result of the 4% Crit during a Mongoose proc. Yes, you'll see the benefit over time, but it's far less likely you'll see the (lesser) benefit provided by a chance-on-a-chance occurrence when it actually matters in the early stages of a fight.

As it stands it's a choice. If you are focused on Damage Reduction as a general policy with your weapons you want to go with Mongoose. If you want Threat, you go with Executioner. They aren't close to each other in effectiveness, and arguing Mongoose is nearly as effective as Executioner for Threat is a dead argument.

For me, nothing in this game is going to kill me. That's true of most tanks who are in Black Temple gear. It's at a point where it really doesn't matter what I socket or what I do. So long as I don't drop the quality of my gear, there's nothing in this game that can kill me. So Threat makes more sense to me. And even that doesn't matter particularly much with the recent Expertise change. I'll change over once the enchant is available and doesn't cost me too much.

Different gear for different situations. ;-)

Ceravantes
11-15-2007, 06:34 AM
Different gear for different situations. ;-)

Think this is the key point of the entire thread, I'll throw it on something and use it as needed.

Balt
11-26-2007, 01:56 PM
Anyone had a chance to test this much? I just got the mallet off of Lurker and was trying to decide which enchant to get.

brain9h
11-27-2007, 05:32 AM
Im putting moongose on it, as it will be my primary tanking weapon. I still love the kings defender but I gotta move on.

Margur
12-01-2007, 01:44 AM
I have two tanking weapons that I use, King's Defender, and the Cleaver from Zul'Aman, I have Mongoose on my KD and Execution on my Cleaver, I greatly prefer tanking with the KD with Mongoose over the Cleaver because of the avoidance Mongoose gives me. This is just my opinion ;)

seanh
01-17-2008, 04:37 AM
Mitigation = 10000 / (10000 + (467.5 * 73 + 22167.5)) = 45.537%

I know that this is the formula used to determine mitigation when an NPC is attacking a player. Are we sure that this formula still applies in the opposite direction?