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View Full Version : Executioner Enchant vs. Mongoose vs. ?? (Haven't theorycrafted yet)



Ciderhelm
08-06-2007, 08:23 PM
Executioner is the incoming new enchant; it will occasionally ignore 840 Armor on a target.

My hunch -- given history with Bonereaver's Edge and The Night Blade, is that this is going to be the most reliable proc-based enchant for a tank. The PPM will (from what I've read) be similar to Mongoose or Crusader.

While Mongoose certainly isn't bad (I can't wait to try it!), the Haste is not as beneficial to a tank as it is to anyone else; also, the Crit is similar to proccing a proc; it isn't reliable in the short term.

Executioner, on the other hand, reliably increases Shield Slam damage whenever it procs. This is why The Night Blade was so powerful and why I replaced my Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker with it so quickly. Given the number of people who used it for the same reason, it was probably the reason for the nerf on that item, too. :( Few enchants can boast an increase to Shield Slam.

Further, Executioner becomes significantly more powerful with Sunder Armor, since Armor is a curved damage reduction formula. Couple in a couple debuffs and and this shoots up. I'm tempted to try the dagger out again with the enchant, even with it's nerfed proc rate, to see how it works out on raid mobs.

Anyway, no numbers to show, no hard data. If anyone wants to put some together, feel free.

Armstrong
08-06-2007, 09:32 PM
I'm a big fan of Formula: Enchant Weapon - Major Striking</SPAN> as a threat enchant for fast weapons, moreso than of Formula: Enchant Weapon - Mongoose for the reasons you mentionned.

Executionner definitely seems like a better "high end" enchant to dump a ton of mats into. Is that part of the 2.2 patch? Any info on how it's obtained?

Necraz
08-06-2007, 09:36 PM
Executionner definitely seems like a better "high end" enchant to dump a ton of mats into. Is that part of the 2.2 patch? Any info on how it's obtained?

It will be from Zul'Aman. I'm not sure whether they have specified whether it will be a random boss drop or some sort of reputation reward. Based on Mongoose/Sunfire/Soulfrost all being boss drops, I have a hunch that it will be similarly acquired, although I don't believe that there is any evidence pointing either way.

Ukyo
08-07-2007, 02:03 AM
I wonder how is gonna work in pvp, i tried to do some pvp in the T6 gear in the PTR, and it was pretty awesome to see such big numbers again :D

If i get King's this week though, i'm gonna start saving for Executioner ^^

Paruhdox
08-07-2007, 06:45 AM
I think it really depends. If you are a tank focusing on mitigation or threat, Tanks dont use mongoose just for threat, it does help generate threat but it is also mitigation. It would take alot of number crunching for this one there are so many factors to figure out which actually gives more threat.

veneretio
08-07-2007, 07:11 AM
I think it really depends. If you are a tank focusing on mitigation or threat, Tanks dont use mongoose just for threat, it does help generate threat but it is also mitigation. It would take alot of number crunching for this one there are so many factors to figure out which actually gives more threat.
Given their similar proc rates and Mongoose's haste rating rather insignificant, this really isn't that difficult to compare.

120 agility vs -840 Armor

Groundchuck
08-07-2007, 07:52 AM
Even the 120 agi is like proccing a proc like Cider said.

You get some armor, dodge and crit.

The dodge and crit are fairly small and they are both chances to do something. Crusader was a real increase in AP (esp when SS scaled with AP) and in MCetc... the healing was a fairly real amount.

I'm very excited for Executioner. I think ignoring armor will give a very real benefit to aggro. (not to mention the implications for DW Fury and rogues)

veneretio
08-07-2007, 07:58 AM
~650 armor = 1&#37; reduction (this is a huge assumption, be sure to point out if this is wrong)

Making Executioner ~1.3% increase.
120 Agility = ~4% to crit

4% to crit > 1.3% increase in damage.

There's a starting point.. now where are the holes ;)
Edit: The above is all wrong. My apologizes for quick posting.

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 08:44 AM
Percentage of Damage Reduction with Armor isn't linear at all, that's the first and biggest issue, which shoots out the basis of your math.

840 Armor against a target with 25,000 Armor isn't going to be that good. 1% would probably be pretty lucky.

840 Armor against a boss that has been Sundered and has other debuffs or buffs reducing their Armor, on the other hand, could be pretty big. For instance, let's say that was the last 840 Armor the mob had. You'd be knocking off ~7.4% of their damage reduction (which, in turn, would be slightly more than 7.4% additional damage).

Keep in mind that some bosses really are that low on Armor. Taking the extreme end, it takes minimal effort to reduce Aran to 0 Armor.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 09:22 AM
Ok, here's some number crunching.

The mitigation formula comes from this page (http://evilempireguild.org/guides/diminishing.php) on Satrina's site.


Starting with a 73 mob with 20&#37; mitigation from armor after 5 sunders (to stay consistent with Ciderhelm's earlier theorycrafting examples).

Based on the formula linked above, 20% mitigation on a level 73 mob = 2990 armor.


After 840 armor reduction from Executionner:

2990 - 840 = 2150 armor


Mitigation for 2150 armor:

2150 / (2150 + (467.5*73 - 22167.5)) = 15.237% mitigation


Going from 20% down to 15.237% mitigation means a 5.953% increase in damage dealt while the Executionner buff is active. Note that the higher the mob's base armor, the less significant the damage increase will be due to the way the mitigation formula works.

The proc rate will also have a big impact on the actual long-term DPS and threat increase. But if as a conservative guess we assume that the buff is active 50% of the time on average, then you get a little under 3% damage increase overall.



EDIT: Executionner damage increase % versus various base armor values (level 73 mobs):

10000 (45.537%) - 840 = 9160 (43.371%) = 3.977% dps increase

5000 (29.481%) - 840 = 4160 (25.806%) = 5.211% dps increase

1500 (11.144%) - 840 = 660 (5.229%) = 6.656% dps increase

veneretio
08-07-2007, 10:24 AM
Percentage of Damage Reduction with Armor isn't linear at all, that's the first and biggest issue, which shoots out the basis of your math.
Thanks for clarifying that, my bad.

I've found a graph on wowwiki that looks rather accurate.
http://www.wowwiki.com/images/thumb/4/46/Armor.JPG/800px-Armor.JPG

So based on the above we need to find out a few things...
1. Where is a standard mob's Armor at
2. Based on that standard what damage increase can we expect from -840 armor
3. Is that damage increase better than 120 agility (since both procs are the same)

Now based on what I'm reading so far since we already have Sunder and potentially can use Night Blade then its going to be pretty rare for Mongoose to be better. My theory is that Mongoose will be better on trash because short fights won't allow you to maximize your sunders. (not that this particularly matters, but just make sure not to number crutch using easy Trash mobs as your examples.. this really has to be based on More Difficult trash mobs and most importantly... bosses.)

Kazeyonoma
08-07-2007, 10:31 AM
I think the threat modifier associated with the debuff is the biggest factor for it. Sure its nice to decrease armor even more and increase overall dps, but most of the times, dps is holding back based on threat, not on their potential to dps harder. If the proc generates a fair amount of threat and proc's often, then It'd outdo Mongoose anyday.

Crimsonstorm
08-07-2007, 10:36 AM
So Executioner procs +X% dmg. (What is X?)

Mongoose procs +4% dmg (from crits), 2% haste (2% more autoattack/heroic strike damage, so probably almost 1% overall) +4.4% dodge, 240 armor.

Executioner would have to be near 10% more damage before I'd consider it, since mongoose is about 5% with dodge and armor.

veneretio
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
I think the threat modifier associated with the debuff is the biggest factor for it. Sure its nice to decrease armor even more and increase overall dps, but most of the times, dps is holding back based on threat, not on their potential to dps harder. If the proc generates a fair amount of threat and proc's often, then It'd outdo Mongoose anyday.
Has there been word that a threat modifier will be associated with this proc? (I highly doubt it will because otherwise only tanks will be able to use it)

The decrease in armor = increase in damage = increase in Threat which is Cider's motivation behind this thread I think :)

Wartorn
08-07-2007, 10:39 AM
Anyone have any WWS's to confirm the damage reduction?

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 10:42 AM
The Dodge and Armor are great. For Damage Reduction, there's no question that Mongoose wins that, but as a general rule I carry two weapons. In my case, King's Defender, Decapitator, Thunderfury, and The Night Blade (in the past this would have been Thunderfury, Crul'Shorukh, Eskhandar's Right Claw).

I keep one weapon with the top Damage Reduction enchant. This would be King's Defender, to stack on the goodness.

I keep the other weapon with the top Threat enchant. This would be any of the other three.

The question for me is which is a better Threat enchant for my Threat weapon.

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 10:43 AM
Anyone have any WWS's to confirm the damage reduction?

The enchant isn't out yet. Zul'aman enchant.

Kazeyonoma
08-07-2007, 10:47 AM
Ah, I thought he compared the enchant to those other items listed BECAUSE those gave some sort of innate threat with it, and thus was hoping this enchant did the same. My mistake.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 11:01 AM
FWIW, I've added the damage increase for a few different base armor levels in my previous post (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/38331-post10.html).

Ciderhelm
08-07-2007, 11:04 AM
Armstrong, would you be interested in providing a more comprehensive post (covering the full subject of Executioner/Mongoose)? I can update it to a new webpage and get it promoted on the frontpage as well.

Wartorn
08-07-2007, 11:15 AM
The enchant isn't out yet. Zul'aman enchant.

I was talking about the armor reduction on bosses. Technically, with WWS, you can get your theoretical white hit and compare it to actual white hits. This should yield a reliable damage reduction from boss armor.

Edit : Then you should be able to interpolate armor for each boss, and do the calculation Armstrong did earlier in this post. It's gonna be a lot of work, but very useful for all melee classes.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 11:18 AM
Armstrong, would you be interested in providing a more comprehensive post (covering the full subject of Executioner/Mongoose)? I can update it to a new webpage and get it promoted on the frontpage as well.
I'm honestly not too sure how to factor in the haste component of Mongoose since its final effect depends on what percentage of a tank's damage comes from white damage and HS versus other abilities, which inturn depends on availability of rage and ability usage. Hopefully minor enough to just throw in a "guess" number range for now.

I've got nothing going on at work today so I'll see what I can put together over the next couple of hours.

veneretio
08-07-2007, 11:56 AM
Well one exciting thing about this enchant is that given the nature of Armor Reduction (which I learned today ;) ) this enchant makes The Night Blade even better than before. (although still not likely as strong as it once was)

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 12:12 PM
...I also don't have access to the game right now and I'm having a hard time finding a reliable value for the ratio of agility vs crit for a 70 warrior. WoWWiki says 33:1, but that doesn't look quite right to me. The armory is giving me different numbers from one player to the next. :P

veneretio
08-07-2007, 12:57 PM
33 agility = 1 crit for a 70 warrior

edit: updated so that would be stranger knows the truth.

Armstrong
08-07-2007, 01:04 PM
~30 agility = 1 crit for a 70 warrior
Yeah I was looking for something that didn't involve a "~". ;)

I guess having the exact number is probably not too critical for now. No pun intended.

Wartorn
08-07-2007, 01:06 PM
33.3~:1 as far as I know.

Crimsonstorm
08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
33 agi = 1&#37; crit.

Mongoose with kings is 132 agi = 4% crit.