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Daylanor
08-06-2007, 12:40 AM
Raw threat values (*0.8 for battle/berz and *1,3 for Def (*1,45 with talent)).

Cleave has 130 threat untalented (this is split if you attack two mobs if on one mob the mob gets full threat).
HS rank 10 has 196 threat.
Scenario you use both on a boss (1 target so no threat split on Cleave)

Cleave is +70dmg and costs 20rage. (130+70=200threat///200/3,5=57,14)
70/20= 3,5dmg per rage


HS is +175dmg and 61,6 increased dmg vs Dazed targets.
HS costs 15rage (175+196=371///371/11,66=31,82)
175/15= 11,66dmg per rage!

3 Imp Cleave is +154dmg and 130 threat (154+130=284///284/7,7= 36,88)
154/20= 7,7 dmg per rage

3 Imp HS is 175dmg for 12rage
Same threat at 196.
-> I’m not going to calculate this since this talent only improves the threat/rage and rage/dmg but not threat/dmg like imp cleave.

Now lets say we do 6 Cleave for 120 rage and 420dmg (924 talented). That is 924 threat (1704 talented)
Now if I use HS to get equal damage:
420/175= 2,4 HS or 2,4*371=890,4
->Lets compare imp cleave vs normal HS
924/175= 5,28 HS or 5,28*371= 1958,88

As you can see just using fewer HS I get the SAME damage with LESS THREAT and it cost me less rage as well.
We see the breaking point is for Improved Cleave. Where doing relative same amount of damage Improved Cleave comes slightly ahead in doing less threat for relatively the same damage.
Even so using Imp Cleave over Heroic Strike on single target where you do not have unlimeted rage (aka as permanent 90+ rage) the threat ratio for dmg/rage is still in favor of Heroic Strike.

Kazeyonoma
08-06-2007, 09:46 AM
hrm, interesting findings, i didn't check your math, but if its true, then lots of cleave users will need to learn to change their rotations.

Crimsonstorm
08-06-2007, 10:39 AM
Youre doing something horribly wrong on the math.

Cleave does less bonus damage, less bonus threat, nad costs more rage. It is less efficient in every way on 1 target than heroic strike.



Cleave is +70dmg and costs 20rage.
70/20= 3.5dmg per rage or 37.14 threat per damage/rage

There is your error I think. 3.5 dmg per rae doesnt turn into 37 threat per rage. I think what youve 'shown' is that cleave is better if you magically multiply its threat generation by a factor of 10.

Crimsonstorm
08-06-2007, 10:46 AM
Correct math:

Heroic Strike untalented:
Cost 12 rage + next swing (~6) = 18 rage.

+Damage = 175 * .7 (accounting for mob armor, defensive stance, 1H spec) = 122
+Threat = 196.

True bonus threat = (122+196) * 1.3 * 1.15 ~= 475

Threat per rage = 475/18 = 26.4

Cleave:

Cost: 17 + 6 = 23.

+Damage = 70 * .7 = 49
+Threat = 130

True threat added = (49+130)*1.3*1.15 = 267

Threat/rage = 267/23 = 11.6



Heroic strike gives more than twice as much treat per rage as cleave vs 1 target.
Heroic Strike gives almost twice as much treat per second bonus as cleave against 1 target.

Daylanor
08-06-2007, 08:01 PM
I'm using no Modifiers and what you are referring to is the threat per damage/rage.
So it's 130threat/3,5(dmg/rage)=37,14 thret per damage/rage
You will find I've done the same for them all.

Heroic Strike Untalented costs 15 rage, 12 when talented.
I don't count any hidden rage costs simply because we're comparing Cleave vs HS, the hidden rage cost is the same and therefore irrelevant.
Cleave costs 20 rage, there is no reduction.

And the inherent threat and damage to the skill do not stack.
HS does 175dmg and does 196threat, this doesn't stack one is hand in hand with the other.

So if I use your math and for dps which we do in Zerker ^_^:

HS: 15 rage + 6 = 21 rage
-Damage = 175 * 0.9 = 157,5 (I say 0.9 since we only count mob armour)
- Threat = 196 * 0.8 = 156,8

Threat per damage = 156,8/157,5 = 0,9955
Damage per rage = 157,5/21 = 7,5

Cleave: 20rage + 6 = 26
- Damage = 70 * 0.9 = 63
- Threat = 130 * 0.8 = 104

Threat per damage = 104/63 = 1,65
Damage per rage = 63/26 = 2,42

No matter how you look at it Heroic Strike is always the better option. As a damage dealer you want to do as much damage as possible for as little threat as possible.

What has gotten most DPS warrior confused is that 1 Cleave does less threat than 1 Heroic Strike, but in doing so do less damage.
Using Heroic Strike over Cleave will always net you higher dps and less threat total. Simply because you would need to do more Cleaves to match the dmg of HS which would tranlate in more overall threat done.

Nicki
08-07-2007, 02:30 AM
From what i understand Imp Slam is the way to go for PvE dps or atleast 2h DPS...

Narshe
08-07-2007, 02:48 AM
Isnt it the maths this way?:

Heroic Strike threat = Heroic Strike damage + 196
Cleave threat = Cleave damage + 130

Imagine a weapon hitting for 300 damage average white hit.

HS= (300+208) + 196 = 704 threat /21 = 33.52 TpR
Cleave= (300+70) + 130 = 500 threat /26 = 19.23 TpR

Daylanor
08-07-2007, 03:08 AM
Nope the way Lavina parsed the threat was simply:

Heroic Strike = 196 threat
Cleave = 130 threat

Not:
HS = 196+175
Cleave = 130+70

Which means that the +dmg on the skill is the threat. No additive, no subractions etc. Just HS: 175dmg=196threat, Cleave: 70dmg=130threat.

Daylanor
08-07-2007, 03:08 AM
From what i understand Imp Slam is the way to go for PvE dps or atleast 2h DPS...

Imp slam works on the Global Cool Down.
Heroic Strike and Cleave are on the weapon swing, two different things :).

Yiko
08-07-2007, 03:26 AM
Nope the way Lavina parsed the threat was simply:

Heroic Strike = 196 threat
Cleave = 130 threat

Not:
HS = 196+175
Cleave = 130+70

Which means that the +dmg on the skill is the threat. No additive, no subractions etc. Just HS: 175dmg=196threat, Cleave: 70dmg=130threat.

Could you give me a link where you found this? I only know of this thread where she called the 196 "innate threat" of HS, just the same way she uses it for all other abilities. I haven't seen anything about that the added damage is the "innate threat" of HS and Cleave .. in which case there really should have been made a difference between real innate threat and what HS/Cleaves is like.

Daylanor
08-07-2007, 03:40 AM
Due to all the points made I re-read Lavina's post and it is dmg+threat for total threat.
So I re did my calculations and edited my OP.
Even so HS is better, though imp cleave is within a margin better. Yet is worse when considering rage expenditure.

Narshe
08-07-2007, 03:46 AM
This is from Lavina's thread


In addition, the abilities that are most commonly used for tanking have their values listed below. Note that these threat values do not include damage done by that attack and may very well be more powerful than they appear. Also, make sure these values are multiplied by the stance factor when making threat calculations. Skills that are assumed to be unaffiliated with general tanking are not listed.

Yiko
08-07-2007, 04:07 AM
This is from Lavina's thread

That was exactly what i remembered. Thanks for clarifying this :)

Crimsonstorm
08-07-2007, 01:30 PM
Oh, this about DPS warriors trying to do more dmg without generating threa.t, sorry. I thought someone was claiming that cleave was better than heroic strike for tnaking one mob.