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veneretio
08-01-2007, 02:44 PM
Regarding Itemization:
Resilience seems to cost much less points on an item than Defense Rating and as such wearing a PvP items might offer more for tanking than equivalent items found in PvE which are actually intended for tanking.

It takes 60 Defense Rating to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.
It takes 39.4 Resilience to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.

For Example:

Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall provides 31 Resilience.

31 Resilience / 39.4 Resilience Rating = 0.78680203% reduce to crit
0.78680203 * 60 (the amount of defense rating in 1% crit reduction) = 47.2081218

...which means that this shield could be said to have ~47 Defense Rating


So it takes 336 Defense Rating to get to 490 Defense and become crit immune. Where as it would take only 220.64 Resilience to create a similar effect and since Defense only adds additional avoidance when it comes to Effective Health PvP items seem to provide more Effective Health than regular PvE items.

This is obviously pushing the envelope, but I figured it'd be a good thing to discuss.

Armstrong
08-01-2007, 03:05 PM
It takes 60 Defense Rating to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.
It takes 39.4 Resilience to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.

Defense only adds additional avoidance so when it comes to Effective Health PvP items become much stronger than regular PvE items.

Discuss.I'll assume you mean that because Resilience reduces crit damage it is a form of mitigation similar to armor? In that case, your statement is true so long as you are not fully immune to crit. Once you are immune to crit, the damage reduction component of Resilience becomes void. So I guess you are comparing the value of defense versus resilience for PvP?

Wartorn
08-01-2007, 03:13 PM
Def adds block, which can directly be translated into effective health on fast hitting mobs.

adrenalize
08-01-2007, 03:19 PM
Once you hit the Cap of 490 def, Then the damage reduction componment becomes void as above stated. Hoever, I also want to point something else out.

1 point of def = 2.36 Def rating at level 70

to become crit immune you need to get 140 def over the 350 defense you have at level 70, therfore you would need around 331 Defense rating. However, At level 70, with 490 def You would have and extra 5% chance to Parry, Block, dodge or be missed by attacks(i think thats right, someone corect me if im not)

With resiliance, you need 39.4 Rating per 1%. So times that by 5 and you need a resiliance rating of 197, This can only be acheived for PvP. However this does not have any other stats attached like Defense does, therfore, Resilience wouldn't mitigate as much damage as straight out defense would.

Someone feel free to correct me if im wrong or i have anything that shouldn't be there, But what im bassicly saying, is that point for point, In most PvE situations, Def is better then resiliance.

veneretio
08-01-2007, 03:24 PM
I've clarified my initial post.

Note: Block value contributes to Effective Health, Block rating which Defense provides does not.

Wartorn
08-01-2007, 03:36 PM
On a fast hitting mob or when SB is down, SBR is the only way to take advantage of all that yummy SBV you've saved up.

veneretio
08-01-2007, 03:44 PM
On a fast hitting mob or when SB is down, SBR is the only way to take advantage of all that yummy SBV you've saved up.
The same could also be said for both Dodge and Parry since they are basically Block Rating with Infinite Block Value as a result Block Rating is not a usable metric for Effective Health.

Atlantian
08-01-2007, 03:51 PM
On a fast hitting mob or when SB is down, SBR is the only way to take advantage of all that yummy SBV you've saved up.

if your total dodge/block/parry/miss does not equal greater than 85% there is no way to avoid a crush if Shield block is down.

crushes take priority.

Atlantian
08-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Regarding Itemization:
Resilience seems to cost much less points on an item than Defense Rating and as such wearing a PvP items might offer more for tanking than equivalent items found in PvE which are actually intended for tanking.

It takes 60 Defense Rating to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.
It takes 39.4 Resilience to reduce your chance to be crit by 1%.

For Example:


So it takes 336 Defense Rating to get to 490 Defense and become crit immune. Where as it would take only 220.64 Resilience to create a similar effect and since Defense only adds additional avoidance when it comes to Effective Health PvP items seem to provide more Effective Health than regular PvE items.

This is obviously pushing the envelope, but I figured it'd be a good thing to discuss.


so, the budget is clear that each point of res is less than that for each point of dodge. Why though? Because defense is not simply crit reduction.

1 Defense Skill
Dodge __________________ 0.04%
Parry __________________ 0.04%
Block __________________ 0.04%
Chance to be Missed ____ 0.04%
Chance to be Crit ______ -0.04%

so you are giving up

2.4% dodge
2.4% parry
2.4% block
2.4% chance to be missed

a total of 9.6% avoidance and block.
To me for a MT the answer is rather clear. There just simply is too much to be sacrified to tank with resiliance. Along with the fact that there is no real itemization to effectively tank with res. gear.

The arguement of can you become crit immune to res isnt in question for PVE. However, it just isnt feasable for a MT. For an OT however, I can see using some Glad gear to gain crit immunity and still be able to effectively keep 2nd on the threat table.

Wartorn
08-01-2007, 04:09 PM
The same could also be said for both Dodge and Parry since they are basically Block Rating with Infinite Block Value as a result Block Rating is not a usable metric for Effective Health.

True.

I guess you're right then. Def doesn't add any effective health. It adds more survivability than Res, but that's just stating the obvious.

Ciderhelm
08-01-2007, 04:42 PM
Effective Health is not an end goal, it's an early benchmark. Once you've got enough for a specific fight, you don't need more, and you want Avoidance.

Atlantian points out the issue. The sacrifice is way too steep. The advantage of the Warrior class -- the reason to stack +Stam gems -- is because there is so much innate Avoidance on our gear. Defense and Avoidance are never bad, or worthless, or even low rated, we just have a lot of it on gear naturally... assuming the Warrior is wearing normal tank gear.

Also, even if you reach "crit immunity" faster, you greatly reduce your Crushing Blow immunity. Avoidance is the only effective way to reduce the chance that attacks will come too quickly, get past your Shield Block charges, and land as crushing. This means that Effective Health needs to be 50% higher on any boss with a fast attack speed or with special attacks (nearly all of them). Wanderlei's work is ideal for seeing this relationship.

Finally, there's not gear to compensate. You aren't going to come up with a full set of gear that will be good for raid tanking. There's no gear that has +Stamina, +Armor, and +Resilience as it's sole stats -- if there was, you could quickly become a Feral Druid with Shield Block (isn't that overpowered!). What you wind up with is so many wasted item stats on Crit, etc., that any gain you make with Resilience is lost due to overall loss of stats like Shield Block Value.

However, yes, many PVP items give a solid benefit to EH. What can be effective is mixing certain pieces of gear from Arena S2. I've seen several raid tanks who are effectively dipping below 490 and using Arena shields to cover the rest of the "crit immunity" difference. I've also seen a few wearing shoulders due to the Armor/Health combination, again dipping below 490 and using Resilience to catch up.


I just don't think you could realistically bypass most +Defense gearing in favor of +Resilience. I don't think there's gear that supports it, and I have a gut feeling that as you got more gear you wanted even just for Effective Health, you'd notice most of it has +Def on it anyway. So no worries!

Narshe
08-02-2007, 12:08 AM
In resistance fights resilience is great to reach uncrittable status, but as previous posted, you are losing too much if you switch defense for resilience in your regular gear.