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veneretio
07-30-2007, 08:57 AM
Improved Defensive Stance offers 6% Spell Damage Reduction with 3 points in it.

Okay why are we skipping over this talent?
Why is it one of the first people cut when the decision gets tough?
Why do people overlook it altogether, even call it bad?

I'm looking towards posting on this talent in the future and I guess I'm looking for something I might have missed because right now I can't help but draw the following parallel:

14,040 Armor = 54% Physical Damage Reduction
17,940 Armor = 60% Physical Damage Reduction

Would you take a talent that gave you 3,900 Armor for only 3 points?

Kazeyonoma
07-30-2007, 09:12 AM
You're talkin about the 6% magic reduction? I love it, but game content limits how useful this is, at least for bosses, so I think a lot of warriors overlook it. I take it whenever I go 8/5/48 and see no reason not to.

Wartorn
07-30-2007, 11:35 AM
If you run 5-man content/KZ all day, it's pretty useless. However, if you're MT or OT1 for a progression guild, it's a must IMO.

gardek
07-31-2007, 12:53 PM
14,040 Armor = 54% Physical Damage Reduction
17,940 Armor = 60% Physical Damage Reduction

Would you take a talent that gave you 3,900 Armor for only 3 points?

That's actually a very interesting comparison. To answer you 3900 armor for 3 points question - I think most of us pick up toughness. Which is 10% more armor for 5 points - That's approx 1500 extra armor, for a base of 15,000.

So if I'm giving 5 points for 1500 armor, I should definitely give 3 for 3900.

In other words, you've convinced me to respec. Thanks for this post ;)

veneretio
07-31-2007, 01:15 PM
After a brief chat with Cider (that you can probably find if you sift back in the shoutbox) I can actually see why people don't use it always. It's a must have at times and other times its pretty vanilla. So if you are okay with respecing as required.. then its not needed. If you are a person that doesn't like to respec though then you should have it.

Temig
07-31-2007, 01:55 PM
I'm pretty sure the answer to this (at least my personal answer to this) is the relative amount of magic dmg encountered as opposed to physical dmg

Ratholorn
07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
I pick it up when we're working on bosses that have magic damage - Hydross, Solarian, Kael. I no longer need it for Hydross since he's on farm, but I spec to it for Solarian soaking and I will spec to it while we learn Kael.
The rest of the time I prefer to take cruelty (11/5/45 as opposed to 11/2/48 with Imp Def Stance).

Bizzam
08-01-2007, 09:50 AM
So can we have a little more discussion on why it is a must have? Granted, I have not tanked anything above Kara yet, but just looking at it, we're talking about if you get nuked for 10k, you will resist 600. That seems minuscule in comparison.

From what I've tanked thus far, nukes do not come in for more than 5kish, which would mean only a savings of 300 points.

It seems to me, again coming from what I have MT'd, that those 3 points could be better spent getting several things, from Imp Sunder Armor, to Imp Demo Shout, to Anger Management.

What are some good arguments FOR having Imp Def Stance?

gardek
08-01-2007, 12:10 PM
So can we have a little more discussion on why it is a must have? Granted, I have not tanked anything above Kara yet, but just looking at it, we're talking about if you get nuked for 10k, you will resist 600. That seems minuscule in comparison.

From what I've tanked thus far, nukes do not come in for more than 5kish, which would mean only a savings of 300 points.

It seems to me, again coming from what I have MT'd, that those 3 points could be better spent getting several things, from Imp Sunder Armor, to Imp Demo Shout, to Anger Management.

What are some good arguments FOR having Imp Def Stance?

300 damage reduction for a single nuke doesn't seem like much, sure. But it can add up quite nicely.

Much like 500 damage reduction from a 5k meele hit (10% from defensive stance) doesn't seem like much either - but also adds up. So for each meele hit you take, it's 500. By the end of a 15 minute fight, you saved your healers a ton of mana.

So I guess the same could be said for Imp Def Stance, for magic heavy encounters. I don't know how much magic damage over all Hydross for example would deal over the duration of a fight (maybe someone with Satrina's addon could pitch in here), but I'm willing to bet it'd be a hefty amount. 6% of 5000 isn't a big deal, 6% of the total during the fight might be quite the difference for your healers.

Wartorn
08-01-2007, 02:37 PM
It's a progression talent.

Sprinks
08-01-2007, 03:08 PM
Unless you're just stuck on current content and need a new spec, I'd think most guilds are in a perpetual state of progression. This is why I always have this talent. Very few guilds have all of the raid content on farm, and the majority of other raiding guilds are pushing progression farther on a weekly basis. If you've already conquered easy content, then there is no point in my mind to respec just to do old content and then respec again (unless the fight requires something extremely specific from a talent spec) for progression nights.

Bizzam
08-01-2007, 04:19 PM
Yeah, I guess I just haven't come upon any of the encounters where it will really make a difference as of yet.

It makes more sense to think of it in the terms of an over the fight end result rather than thinking of it in terms of a single volley.

Ciderhelm
08-01-2007, 04:51 PM
You definitely want the talent for certain encounters, or when dealing with certain areas of progression. Hydross and Kael'thas come to mind, but much of Karazhan is equally suited.

Improved Defensive Stance is multiplicative. Against a 10,000 damage spell it doesn't reduce 600 damage, it reduces 540 damage.

It's not a bad talent. I just wouldn't consider it a core talent unless you are doing heavy magic bosses. If reducing damage is your goal, absolutely, pick it up; if increasing Threat output is your goal, perhaps it's not so important.

Narshe
08-02-2007, 12:04 AM
When you are doing Kael or Hydross it comes really handy (Kael pyros shoot for 45k, reduced to 50% if you got the legendary mace buff). For the rest of bosses its not needed, even for Solarian, that is 100% magic damage.

Crimsonstorm
08-06-2007, 10:59 AM
Toughness is a 10% armor boost which ends up being about 2% - 2.5% more armor mitigation. Having 62.5% mitigation instead of 60% means you take 37.5% of the damage instead of 40%.

37.5/40 = 93.75. Thus, youre preventing 6.25% of the damage.

Essentially, 5/5 toughness gives roughly as much physical mitigaiton as 3/3 Imp Defensive stance.

How much of the damage you take is physical and how much is magic?

Almost all of it is physical. Except for certain bosses, where you might want it. Even then, it sucks for everything else so you only need it for the period where: 1) You cant survive the boss without it, and 2) You can survive him with it.

Alchamire
08-07-2007, 08:23 PM
Imp defensive stance is a waste of a talent in my opinion UNLESS you are going into a resistance oriented raid. If you have 300+ fire resistance you will only resist up to 75% of the fire damage being inflicted upon you. So if you are still getting hit too hard by the fuego, then put the 3 points here, though it may not go far. If you do the math 6% of 100 damage is well, 6 damage resisted. So on a grander scale, with a fire ball nailing you for a hard 10K hp, you will only resist 600 damage of that. If you have your 3 points here though and have that 300+ FR, thats 75% resistance from your Fire resistance and an additional 6%, so 81%. So with 81% of a 10,000 damage fire ball, you will only take 1,900 damage, rather than 2,500 damage. This talent really only seems worth while if you take all these ideas into consideration. So if you aren't tanking something full of magically delicious goodness that you need resistance for, its garbage.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 01:36 PM
No, it doesnt work like that.

It doesnt turn 75% resistance into 81%.

It goes like this:

10k incoming fireball => 2500 from resistance.

Then with normal defensive stance 10% reduction => 2250
But with Imp defensive stance 16% reduction => 2100


So with a 10k fireball (before any mitigation), and 75% resistance, youll take 2100 with imp defensive and 2250 without.

veneretio
08-08-2007, 03:11 PM
Basically, its useful for only magic damage fights, but it really shines when you are taking enough physical damage that you aren't able to wear resistance gear.