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maintanker
07-29-2007, 05:41 AM
Here is the math behind Impale in relation to threat and damage, and also a Devastate comparison.(Formulas and other statistical information can be viewed below)

For this excercise we will use these base variables for comparisons:

1. Base Weapon Damage (white hit)= 200 (estimated in defensive stance using a Sun Eater; in tank gear, w/o Battleshout)
2. Mitigation from armor will NOT be calculated
3. Focused Rage and Imp. Heroic Strike will be used.
4. Shield slam damage and 1H damage, all will be estimated and WILL not include talents like Shield Mastery, 1H weapon specialization.(estimated low)


We will compare the following abilities in regard to Threat, Damage, and Modifiers such as Impale/Deep wounds in relation to overall effectiveness of abilities:

Revenge
Shield Slam
Devastate
Heroic Strike

1. Revenge (base damage 414 - 504 for 2 rage) we will use 414 as our test standard.
Base damage in defensive stance: 372.6
Base damage in defensive stance by Crit: 745.2

Base threat from Revenge ability: 201

Threat Total combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 573.6
Threat per rage point: 286.7

Threat Total combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers: 946.2
Threat per rage point: 473.1

Revenge + Impale:

Base damage in defensive stance: 372.6
Crit damage w/Impale: 894.24 (+149.04 damage) over base 745.2
Threat Total combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers + Impale: 1095.24 (+149.04 threat)
Threat per rage point: 547.62 (+ 74.52) WOW a 15%+ increase in THREAT per RAGE with JUST IMPALE!

2. Shield Slam (base damage 420 - 440 for 17 rage + 300 Shield block value) we will use 720 as our test standard.
Base damage in defensive stance: 648
Base damage in defensive stance by Crit: 1296

Base threat from Shield Slam: 307

Threat Total Combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 648 + 307= 955
Threat per rage point: 56

Threat Total Combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers: 1296 + 307= 1603
Threat per rage point: 94

Shield Slam + Impale:

Base damage in defensive stance: 648
Crit damage w/Impale: 1555.2 (+259.2 damage) over base 1296

Threat Total combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers + Impale: 1555.2 + 307= 1862.2 (+259.2 threat)
Threat per rage point: 109.5 (+15.5) WOW another 16% increase in THREAT per RAGE with IMPALE!

3. Devastate (12 rage base damage will include 5 sunders and 200 base weapon damage: Formula is W 2 + 35 S=
200/2 + 35x5= 275)
Base damage in defensive stance: 247.5
Base damage in defensive stance by Crit: 495

Base threat from Devastate: 101

Threat Total Combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 247.5 + 101= 348.5
Threat per rage point: 29
Threat Total for SUNDER ARMOR: 301
Threat per rage point:(minimum 10 rage sunder- 2 Imp. Sunder + Focused Rage) 30.1 (33.4 with 3/3 Imp. Sunder)

Threat Total Combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers: 495 + 101= 596
Threat per rage point: 49.6

Devastate + Impale:

Base damage in defensive stance: 247.5
Crit damage w/Impale: 594 (+99 damage) over base 495
Threat Total Combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers + Impale: 594 + 101= 695
Threat per rage point: 57.9 (+8.3) GUESS WHAT, another 16% increase in THREAT per RAGE with IMPALE!

4. Heroic Strike (Rank 10 base 200 weapon damage + 201 for 9 rage)
Base damage in defensive stance: 360.9
Base damage in defensive stance by Crit: 721.8

Base threat from Heroic Strike: 196

Threat Total Combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 360.9 + 196= 556.9
Threat per rage point: 61.8
(more than doubles Devastate threat; or in other words it would cost an additional 15 rage to equal 1 HS)

Threat Total Combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers: 721.8 + 196= 917.8
Threat per rage point: 101.9
(again more than doubles Devastate threat)

Heroic Strike + Impale:

Base damage in defensive stance: 360.9
Crit damage w/Impale: 866.16 (+144.36 damage) over base 721.8
Threat Total Combined from base threat + crit damage modifiers + Impale: 866.16 + 196= 1062.16
Threat per rage point: 118 (+16.1) YEP, ONCE MORE, 16% INCREASE in THREAT PER RAGE!

So, we can also add in Deep wounds:
200 base damage= 120 deep wounds damage= 120 more threat on a crit :)

MAIN TANK THREAT makes DPS'ers HAPPY!

Mozman
07-29-2007, 06:52 AM
not checked the math and it looks interesting tho no cruelty (or 3/5) = less crits, & thats just part of what you're giving up

Berginyon
08-05-2007, 05:55 PM
Since Devastate and Vitality scale with gear, I used an Impale build for tanking until I was epic'd out from Kara. I always out-aggro'd and out DPS'd all other Devastate prot warriors in equivalent gear. Also, if you don't have Devastate, you can use daggers and a crafted Dirge held me for a month or two until King's Defender dropped. I saw Deep Wounds generating 2% of my damage and Impale 3-4%. I wish I would have kept the recap numbers for exact numbers and supporting stats. :-(

Crimsonstorm
08-06-2007, 10:15 AM
The impale build seems to me to be better on trash and worse on bosses.

On bosses, the loss of the 2 pts in vitality matters (couple hundred hp), on trash it shouldnt matter.
On bosses, your crit rate is lower.
On bosses, you need to use a fast weapon so deep wounds isnt as good. On trash, you wont be heroic striking much due to less rage, so its ok to use a slow weapon for bigger deep wounds.

I'd really like to use the impale build, but I never seem to have enough crit to make it worth it, especially with only 3/5 cruelty. My crit rate on gruul for example seemed very low.

Bizzam
08-06-2007, 12:54 PM
Let's not forget potential repercussions of having Deep Wounds also. You have to be careful when tabbing through targets that you don't accidentally DOT a mob that is planned for CC when pulling raid trash or running heroics.

Wartorn
08-06-2007, 01:22 PM
You can make some simplifying assumptions (thanks to WWS) to see personal gains from impale.

My WWS's tell me I pump out about 200-300 raid DPS depending on the fight, with a 175 average melee hit (includes crits) in defensive stance. I also have ~10% crit rate versus bosses. Lets do a Low DPS case and a High DPS case (for myself).

The Math
White DPS = Avg Hit/Weapon Speed
Total DPS - White DPS = Yellow DPS
Base Yellow DPS + Crit Yellow DPS = Yellow DPS
Crit Yellow DPS = Crit rate*Base Yellow DPS*2
Impale DPS = Base Yellow DPS + Crit Rate*Base Yellow DPS*2.2
DPS increase = Impale DPS - Yellow DPS

White DPS
175/1.6 = 109 DPS

Low DPS
200-109 = 91
L + 0.1*L*2 = 91
L = 76
Impale DPS = 76 + 0.1*76*2.2 = 93 DPS.
2 DPS increase at the low end.

High DPS
300-109 = 191
H + 0.1*H*2 = 191
H = 159
Impale DPS = 250 + 0.1*250*2.2 = 194 DPS
3 DPS increase on the high end.

Deep Wounds DPS
My base melee attack hits for ~175. Assuming my deep wounds never resets and stays up the whole time (at 10% unlikely, but it could happen), it comes out to 8.75 (175*0.6/12) DPS. That's potentially very HOT! However, it won't be useful against bleed immune targets, and detrimental during CC sensitive fights.

Edit : FixT.

Yiko
08-06-2007, 02:56 PM
The Math
Base DPS + Crit DPS = Total DPS
Crit DPS = Crit rate*Base DPS*2
Impale DPS = Base DPS + Crit Rate*Base DPS*2.2


Just looking at your math, i assume you forgot to consider that impale only increases the damage of critting abilities and not white damage. So the difference would be even smaller, if i'm not mistaken.

Wartorn
08-06-2007, 03:21 PM
Wow, you're right.

*Goes back to the drawing board*

maintanker
08-08-2007, 04:05 AM
And remember; even if your DPS/overall damage is not vastly increased with Impale, it will increase your threat. Which is the reason why I posted the information.

Remember after you have taken all the basic tanking tools in Prot/Arms etc, the only way to increase your TPS is gear, and/or by taking Impale/Deep Wounds.

Most warriors just don't think outside the box, rely on misinformation, and/or just don't focus on generating TPS....they just focus on mitigation, and think devastate does it all.

Glad to see the constructive posts.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 10:23 AM
If you had enough talent points for Impale AND Cruelty AND all the prot stuff you need (~43), you would take impale.

But you dont.

So the key is:

Is the threat increase from deep wound + impale GREATER than the benefit of having those in cruelty and whatever else you would put them in (vitality).

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 10:38 AM
Vitality increases just my white DPS by 4.1DPS, which is better than Impale, but potentially not as good as deep wounds. IMO, deep wounds creates more headaches than it's worth.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 11:22 AM
And remember; even if your DPS/overall damage is not vastly increased with Impale, it will increase your threat. Which is the reason why I posted the information.


Yes it is an increase. But is it more of an increase than the cruelty talents you gave up for it? Or the devastate and vitality talents you gave up for it?

TheZ
08-08-2007, 11:49 AM
I highly doubt it's worth doing, you sacrafice a bit to much talent wise and a few utility things. Not having full vitality hurts you and devistate hurts even more. For mostly solo leveling it may not be bad but still not the best choice for a raid tank build. If your looking for a raid build just go for the cookie cutter build of 8/5/48, it's solid and holds up well to most things you throw at it.

Crimsonstorm
08-08-2007, 02:57 PM
8/5/48 isnt cookie cutter anymore, 12/5/44 is (or something extremely similar). Imp heroic strike is much betterthan those marginal prot talents.

Wartorn
08-08-2007, 03:43 PM
I like prefer 8/7/46.

Imp. TC, Imp. Demo, Devastate/Vitality.