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thugthedum
07-25-2007, 10:38 PM
In Defense of Block Rating
Punch me in the face ~ Thugthedum

Block rating seems to be a misunderstood stat by many tanks. People have thought wrongly that block was avoidance (like dodge, 100% reduction). People have confused block rating and block value. People have even stated, wrongly, that 25% shield block was required for some reason. This has been disproved over and over by smart tanks doing the warrior community a service. In the process, however, block rating has been vilified. "It's a paladin tanking stat" I've heard more than once.

I suggest that while block rating has some obvious misconceptions and limitations, a tank should not shun it or avoid it just because of these problems. Block can be very useful.

Many tanks working their way through Karazhan for the first time will eventually notice that their threat per second rating seems to be going down; maybe right around the time you pick up Boots of Elusion or Moroes Pocketwatch.

It happened to me; I worked hard to get the Aldor Vindicator's Hauberk, Boots of Elusion, and Pocketwatch - I worked hard enchanting everything I could find with agility for the dodge value, and I worked hard getting the pattern for the Felsteel Longblade to increase my dodge via agility. My dodge rating was a thing of wonder; and without really giving up much stamina.

And I wasn't getting any rage. My defense skill was 540, dodge was 25%.

I clearly remember looking over a combat log from a wipe to try to see what had gone wrong. I remember, on that fight specifically I was rage starved, and more than once skipped an occasion to shield block to get extra rage. I was consciously aiming to take damage so as to increase my rage, because I was worried about my threat output. I died when I took four hits in a row followed by two crushes.

Unlucky? Yes; sort of - but remember, I was skipping the shield blocks that would have kept me alive because I was being rage starved. I was overgeared for the fight, in other words.

Many tanks carry around tons of gear for different situations; lots of warriors in T4/5/6 either complain that they are rage starved in heroics or carry "older" gear around so they'll get more rage.

In that grand tradition, I recommend to the aspiring tank as they find themselves rage starved and therefore threat reduced that they focus on increasing block rating.

Keep the Vindicator's Hauberk in your bags; it's a wonderful avoidance piece and you'll need it. But tank 90% of Karazhan in the Jade Skull breastplate. Jade Skull is a high block rating, high stamina piece, that on the surface looks inferior to the Vindicator's Hauberk in every way. But you're going to get more rage wearing the Jade Skull.

Same goes for the Boots of Elusion - keep them, but get Battlescar and tank in them. Don't equip the Moroes pocketwatch for what should be an easy fight - trade it out for a high stamina piece like the 51 stam trinket or the 45 stamina engineering trinket. Or even the Terrokar Tablet for the hit rating.

To sum it up: dodge is a great way to make a hard fight easier; but Dodge can also make an easy fight harder. And in that case, trading dodge pieces for block rating pieces can be your best friend.

Thoughts?

veneretio
07-25-2007, 10:52 PM
I think that issue with your post is that you are going under the assumption that the only way to gear up as a tank is to stack Avoidance. I think you'll find around these parts that a number of tanks advocate stacking Armor/Stamina/Block Value. What this results in is taking steady smaller hits and hitting for massive numbers with Shield Slam. It's a fantastic balance as it lends itself to High Threat and a great barrier against Burst Damage.

Block Rating frankly is a very weak stat in my opinion. If you need to block you simply use Shield Block.

Ciderhelm
07-25-2007, 11:01 PM
Thug,

I like the article. It's generally all good advice, and what you are saying contrasts what many people suggest about it being a worthless stat. Including myself!

Two things need to be true for your information to be accurate. First, you can't be dealing with Crushing Blows -- which, yes, includes most of Karazhan and all 5-man content. Second, mobs in question need to be attacking fairly quickly or have a generally low damage output.

With both of those being true, the point stands. This is information I may include (with credit) for a 5-man guide, because you've worded it well.

thugthedum
07-26-2007, 02:56 PM
first of all: thanks! Cider, Satrina, Kenco are all writers I've been reading over and over for months now, so I consider it a bit of an honor that you have positive things to say.

I do have some questions and a clarification though:

Why does the above imply that "you can't be dealing with Crushing Blows "?

I don't mean to advocate avoidance tanking - if it sounds that way, I should probably edit it a bit. I think stamina/armor balance is probably the most important thing; but there are many times a tank will be choosing between the high dodge and the high block rating item, and I'm simply advocating they take the high block rating one in most cases. Maybe the post could use an edit in that regard.

I see block rating as a "lesser of two avoidance evils" - not a stat to gear for specifically.

Does that make any sense?

Personally, I gear towards stamina, armor, and block value once a base 490-500 defense is assumed. I think the next stat I'll "go overboard" with is +hit; I'd like to be raiding at around 5-10%. I think evilempire's guides stats 8.6% as the "don't need any more" cap, but I'd have to check. I raid at 15,103 HP unbuffed, 14k armor, 500 defense, 23% block rating and 300BV. I'd love to improve that last number, specifically.

Ariedan
07-26-2007, 03:15 PM
Interesting.

Block rating's something I've really been interested in looking into, primarily because I haven't yet seen any huge importance in it. I personally just stack stamina and try to keep dodge and parry around 20%, which they are without even trying. I'm also trying to work on a hit rating and block value set for threat generation. All of these stats have immediate visible results, so they're easier for me to come to conclusions on what I like. But if someone's willing to look into block rating, I wouldn't say no to it. :D

veneretio
07-26-2007, 03:37 PM
So is your primary point: When over-gearing an instance use Block Rating over Dodge so that you don't get Rage starved?

If so, that seems fair to me.

That being said, I think you need to clean up your points a little because with the equipment choices you are making give the article a bit of scattered feel. I'd recommend more headings and that you re-consider some of your examples. (the boots one in particular rings a bell)

Ariedan
07-26-2007, 03:42 PM
If I wanted to do an easy instance, wouldn't I just either put all stamina gear or or a few dps pieces? I don't see how block rating helps for easy stuff, anymore than putting on pure stamina and/or dps gear on.

Armstrong
07-26-2007, 03:50 PM
Why does the above imply that "you can't be dealing with Crushing Blows "?

(...) there are many times a tank will be choosing between the high dodge and the high block rating item, and I'm simply advocating they take the high block rating one in most cases. (...)

I see block rating as a "lesser of two avoidance evils" - not a stat to gear for specifically.

Does that make any sense?

It doesn't make sense for tanking raid bosses, because until you can reach 102.4% (or whatever the number is...) total miss+dodge+parry+block without the use of the Shield Block ability, the only way to make yourself immune to Crushing Blows, even if temporarily, is through the use of the Shield Block ability.

Since Shield Block only gives you two charges per use (in other words, the buff wears off once you've blocked two attacks), and because your chances to miss / dodge / parry remain the same while Shield Block is active, increasing your chance to be missed / dodge / parry actually makes it less likely that you will block, meaning that you keep your Shield Block charges longer on average.

Increasing your Block Rating only makes a difference during those times where you don't have Shield Block active, and will not reduce your chances of taking a crushing blow until your total miss / dodge / parry / block reaches 87.4% or higher.

I'm also not advocating for stacking avoidance excessively high, but it is true that pure avoidance does in fact reduce your chances of taking a crushing blow on fights where you are spamming the Shield Block ability.

thugthedum
07-26-2007, 03:57 PM
So is your primary point: When over-gearing an instance use Block Rating over Dodge so that you don't get Rage starved?

If so, that seems fair to me.

Hmm. Makes it seem a little foolish, huh?


That being said, I think you need to clean up your points a little because with the equipment choices you are making give the article a bit of scattered feel. I'd recommend more headings and that you re-consider some of your examples. (the boots one in particular rings a bell)

Excellent points. Battlescar are parry oriented, not block rating specifically. I think parry is an awesome stat, but it doesn't help the article any I guess. The Boots of Elusion just have too much darned dodge on them for many situations.

It's like I see dodge as too powerful a stat, and too plentiful - and if a tank isn't thinking, and just reads about how wonderful it is, they're going to end up watching their threat drop more and more. The first few pieces I happened to find that I could replace high dodge items with happened to be high block rating.

thugthedum
07-26-2007, 03:59 PM
Since Shield Block only gives you two charges per use (in other words, the buff wears off once you've blocked two attacks), and because your chances to miss / dodge / parry remain the same while Shield Block is active, increasing your chance to be missed / dodge / parry actually makes it less likely that you will block, meaning that you keep your Shield Block charges longer on average.


AHH!!!!! Now I get it.

Hmm. So block rating actually makes shield block protect me less. OK! Time to re-think my post.


Wait wait wait; this all applies to the fight we're working on right now in fact. We're working on the Prince - and reading through my combat log, it seems most wipes are me dying to a hit or a crush, even though I was trying hard to keep shield block up ALL THE TIME. And I did notice, the first fight I only took two crushes - subsequent fights I took 5, 9, 14 - lots more! The change I made was that our first attempt I was geared for avoidance, with high dodge - and subsequent fights I was stamina geared (and my particular stamina gear is high block rating and low dodge: Jade Skull > Vindicators, Rocket Launcher > Pocketwatch).

So!

My stamina chest, since it's the Jade Skull, causes me problems on fights where the shield block is critical!!! My Vindicator's Hauberk only reduces stamina by 11 as compared to Jade Skull, and no more armor I don't think, so I'm not trading too much stamina for the 46 defense rating and 19 dodge I hope?

zOMG this has been hugely helpful.

OK this week I'm going to gear stamina/armor first, then dodge/defense and see how it goes.

Armstrong
07-26-2007, 04:16 PM
Prince is a prime example of a fight where stacking avoidance is more beneficial than stacking stamina when you gear is still a mix of 5-man blues and a few Karazhan epics (it starts to matter less when you can hit 17k armor and 18k health without consumables ;) ). He attacks very quickly during phase two, eating up your Shield Block charges and making you susceptible to taking Crushing Blows for a greater number of the swings made against you.

Stam and armor buffs still play a big role here, but debuffs like Scorpid Sting and Insect Swarm also contribute hugely to reducing the number of Crushing Blows you take during phase 2.

thugthedum
07-26-2007, 04:47 PM
Done and done.

Thanks a million.

Edit:
Scorpid Sting - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki (http://www.wowwiki.com/Scorpid_Sting) does look really nice for this fight, yes. If I remember my combat tables properly, I should be around 17% to be hit, 15% to be crushed, 0% to be crit against the Prince. Is this then going to make me 12% to be hit 15% to be crushed? Or will it detract from both hit and crush?

Armstrong
07-26-2007, 06:25 PM
Normally it substracts 5% from your opponent's chance to hit.

The important part however, is that while Shield Block is active, your opponent's chance to hit, crit and crush are pushed off the attack table entirely by the added 75% chance to block. And because your chance to be missed takes priority over your chance to block, Scorpid Sting effectively reduces your chance to block by 5% while Shield Block is active.

This is a good thing, since the lower your chance to block, the longer you keep your Shield Block charges, and the longer you remain immune to crushing blows.

thugthedum
08-09-2007, 02:37 PM
One more time! Re-write:

In Defense of Block Rating
Punch me in the face ~ Thugthedum

Block rating seems to be a misunderstood stat by many tanks. People have thought wrongly that block was avoidance (like dodge, 100% reduction). People have confused block rating and block value. People have even stated, wrongly, that 25% shield block was required for some reason. This has been disproved over and over by smart tanks doing the warrior community a service. In the process, however, block rating has been vilified. "It's a paladin tanking stat" I've heard more than once.

I suggest that while block rating has some obvious misconceptions and limitations, a tank should not shun it or avoid it just because of these problems. Block can be very useful.

Many tanks working their way through Karazhan for the first time will eventually notice that their threat per second rating seems to be going down; maybe right around the time you pick up Boots of Elusion or Moroes Pocketwatch.

It happened to me; I worked hard to get the Aldor Vindicator's Hauberk, Boots of Elusion, and Pocketwatch - I worked hard enchanting everything I could find with agility for the dodge value, and I worked hard getting the pattern for the Felsteel Longblade to increase my dodge via agility. My dodge rating was a thing of wonder; and without really giving up much stamina.

And I wasn't getting any rage. My defense skill was 540, dodge was 25%.

Often, in trash fights, I was loosing mobs to players who normally didn't have problems staying under the aggro limit - on easy bosses, I was finding my lower threat output was making the raid slow down.

Many tanks carry around tons of gear for different situations; lots of warriors in T4/5/6 either complain that they are rage starved in heroics or carry "older" gear around so they'll get more rage.

In that grand tradition, I recommend to the aspiring tank as they find themselves rage starved and therefore threat reduced that they focus on increasing block rating - for fights where you are finding that it is difficult to keep the boss or trash mob's attention. Less dodge and more block rating often means gear with higher stamina or higher block value, particularly when you are trying to figure out which blue chest you are going to equip.

In a fight that is difficult because you take too much damage and die, i.e. a fight where you will be using shield block to continue living, you need to make sure your block rating is as low as possible. If you need avoidance for a fight, stack dodge or parry, but avoid block like the plague. The reason for this is that the shield block talent only has two charges - and when you equip high block rating gear you are asking WoW to use those two charges up more quickly! If you have a high dodge rating when you use shield block, you are asking WoW to help you keep the buff up a little longer, as a dodge or a parry does not count against the buff's two block limit.

So in closing - know why block has limitations, and understand that when you are making your gear choices. Don't just shard every piece you see that has high block rating!

thugthedum
08-09-2007, 02:41 PM
BTW; we downed the Prince that week thanks to the feedback gotten here, and then went on to down Maulgar in the same timer.

<3 tankspot.com!

Thug

Crimsonstorm
08-09-2007, 03:46 PM
AHH!!!!! Now I get it.

Hmm. So block rating actually makes shield block protect me less. OK! Time to re-think my post.


No thats not it.

Having less defense/dodge/parry will make your shield block protect your less against fast hitting mobs (since there will be a greater chance of two quick hits, taking you out of shield block, and then a crush). But its a minor factor.

Now, putting on Jade skull over Vindicator's Hauberk lowes your avoidance, and thus slightly increases your chance of a crushing blow slipping through after two quick hits.

The reason why shield block rating "sucks" is becasue it DOES NOTHING AGAINST A BOSS. Against a boss oyu are trying to have shield block skill up all the time, and thus your block % will be "all hits that arent a miss/dodge/parry", no matter what your block rating.

When shield block skill goes down, block rating will still only be turning some normal hits into blocks, not a big deal, it wont stop crushes.

So on a boss, you want stam/armor/block value most of all, and dodge/defense/parry next, and you dont care about block rating.



For prince:

There are two methods of dealing with him:

1) Stack enough stam/armor so that even if he hits you with multiple hits on a thrash, and you get crushed, you STILL live. This is the best method, but requires very good gear. If you get enough, you can guarantee that you survive. If you dont, youll get crushed an die.

2) Stack avoidance like crazy, to greatly reduce the chance that he can hit you several times in a short period and kill you.

With this method you will sometimes get random deaths, but other times you will be able to make it through safely. You wont guarantee success, but you do have a chance at success. This works for people who dont have sufficient gear to do #1. Note that with this method you will have rage problems. (Stretches of no incoming rage). So be careful with your rage, and tell your dps to give you a big lead in phase 1. Tell everyone to not go all out in phase 1, conserve mana, not use cooldowns, etc, and then go all out with everything in phase 2. Use your cooldowns in phase 2: moroes trinket, last stand, shield wall... Pray you make it through.



But anyway, block rating gives basically no benefit on bosses. It just does nothing at all. Its actually quite good on trash (especially multimob trash), if you have high block value and high armor. Youll block large amounts of each of the small trash mobs hits.

The best way to do heroics when well geared is high armor, high block value and block rating, low avoidance. You still get good rage with the low avoidance, and your high block and armor and blocking most hits means youll take a steady stream of small hits that are easy to heal through. (Each block is also 1 rage). The best way to do heroics when poorly geared is lots of avoidance and accept the occasional wipes do to bad luck, but usually get through safely.

Crimsonstorm
08-09-2007, 04:02 PM
In a fight that is difficult because you take too much damage and die, i.e. a fight where you will be using shield block to continue living, you need to make sure your block rating is as low as possible. If you need avoidance for a fight, stack dodge or parry, but avoid block like the plague. The reason for this is that the shield block talent only has two charges - and when you equip high block rating gear you are asking WoW to use those two charges up more quickly!

No, this still isnt right ;)

You dont need to make sure your block rating is lower. Having more block rating does not cause your shield block charges to be consumed faster.

This is yet another one of the many misconceptions that people have about block rating.

Having more shield block rating, during a time when shield block skill is active, has NO EFFECT. At all. Its not bad or good, its just irrelevant.

You dont need to try to have less block rating. Its not actually bad for you or anything.

Its just not any GOOD for you either. So the reason people avoid is is because they want to choose something else INSTEAD of it that does help them.

Armstrong
08-09-2007, 05:18 PM
BTW; we downed the Prince that week thanks to the feedback gotten here, and then went on to down Maulgar in the same timer.

<3 tankspot.com!

Thug
Grats on the kills!

Crimsonstorm is 100% correct by the way. My bad in the first place for using the words "the lower your chance to block, the longer you keep your Shield Block charges" a few posts up. In the context of the Scorpid Sting discussion, it was meant as "while Shield Block is active if you lower you chance to block by adding to your chance to be missed, you keep your Shield Block charges longer". But when taken out of context it can be interpreted as meaning that having less Block Rating is helpful by itself, which is really not the case.

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 08:53 AM
Interesting thread.

I think there is a bit of a false dichotomty here though.

The contention seems to be that for instances/fights when you are overgeared and have too much rage, there is an advantage to stacking Block Rating as this will allow you to have more rage and generate more threat.

Thus the choice is between Avoidance and Block Rating.

However, instead of removing Avoidance pieces for BR pieces, why not remove Avoidance for DPS pieces. If you have an a situation where lowering your avoidance is not a problem, surely having additional hit/crit/ap will give a larger rage/threat increase that stacking more Block Rating.

I've thought about your arguement but I still think that shy of hitting 102.4&#37; passive avoidance for elimination of crushing blows, Block Rating is still an inferior stat for stacking.

Horacio
08-10-2007, 09:14 AM
hrm.....

I seem to hover around 25&#37; without stacking it. Its certainly not a worthless stat even going max stam/mitigation....Prince as an example, you're going to get drilled and have to hope for a natural block (IE, not buffed w/ SB) from time to time because he's going crazy ex-girlfriend on you flailing axes and what not. There's a rough gear threshold somewhere in there where its fine to just "here I am, jackass, hit me" and decent healers will heal through it, even a crush or 3 that will occur. With SB up every cooldown, they shouldn't come back to back.

For rage problems being over geared on stuff....well, if you're over geared, you're prolly not the only one so it won't hurt for everyone to hang on a sec....even without stacking avoidance, out there at a certain level of gear, you're gonna have a ton of it. You'll get a few dodge strings and find yourself cussing and screaming at an empty rage bar.

Meh, I still am not a fan of BR though...I may rummage around my bank a bit and see if I still have my Colossuss trinket thingy from SH....its got 4% block (30? rating) on it. Throw it on for Prince or Moroes or Romeo...all mobs who attack very fast, to test this out some.

As far as throwing on DPS gear....eh, I've tried it and I've actually acquired a decent set of DPS gear that rots in my bank...I'm far more comfortable in tank gear and if anything, I'll stack on a little block. I seem to manage my rage ok but every now and then I'll run dry.....

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 09:27 AM
I've slowly been accumulating DPS gear as well but tend to leave it in the bank unless I know there will be a specific encounter where it will be useful (Aran for instance)

I tend to just wind up taking off gear if I am raged starved. I've gotten fairly used to tanking BM kara attunements sans pants :)

I'm not sure why you'd want to stack BR for prince though. It won't impact the frequency of crushing blows, you shouldn't be running into rage problems and +stam or even +dodge would increase your survivability more during the fight.

thugthedum
08-10-2007, 09:47 AM
Well then srsly, what's so bad about BR?

if I get it wrong that it's wasting shield block, then there's really not much wrong with shield block rating at all as a stat. I see a block as an incredibly good thing. You didn't get crushed; and you do get some damage incoming for the rage. It's quite rare that healers can't heal me thorugh

Prince hits you for 3,500 (300 blocked).
Prince hits you for 3,800.
Prince hits you for 3,500 (300 blocked).

No matter how fast he's hitting. But if a rage starved tank skips the shield block because his dodge rating is too high just so he can get some rage, then he's going to see

Prince hits you for 5,200 (crushing).
Prince hits you for 3,800.
Prince hits you for 5,200 (crushing).


And that's much harder to heal through. So in that case, BR > dodge. It's mitigation, not avoidance. 35&#37; BR and 500 BV would be heaven! It's like a 35% chance to mitigate via armor -and- mitigate via block value -and- get rage via shield specialization -and- get rage via damage. And the way the stuff is itemized, that's not terribly difficult to attain.

The original reason to write the guide was that there is a lot of anti-BR fud out there. I wanted to get across why it was a "bad" stat but at the same time try to diffuse it a bit.

I guess I'm always concerned that some new tank (i.e. me!) is going to read a rant "lol that foo thought he had to have 25% block rating zOMG lol block rating is ftl" and go shard all his block rating gear.

What am I missing? At this point I'm almost ready to begin advocating we all try to get to 50% block rating, not just 25%!

OK now from theory wonking (which admittedly I'm not great at) to reality (somewhat better track record here).

What I'm doing on the Prince right now is aiming for the sky with dodge, then defense, then EH, but consciously avoiding BR. Because he hits fast. Because I'm not often rage starved on the Prince. Because he can output a lot of damage. I was avoiding BR because I put the facts presented here together in a way that made me think that my "BR was eating shield block charges". (still not sure it isn't!)

What I'm doing in 25 man content (Maulgar, Gruul so far) is stacking EH to the sky. 15,600 HP, 15,300 armor unbuffed - not bad for a a scrub MT fresh from Kara, but only 490 def and a tiny bit of +parry and +dodge. I figure with three healers spamming me, I'm not helping them out when I avoid. I'm helping them out when I mitigate and can take two hits in a row if they have to run away from the whirlwind for a second.

Back to theory...

On this board I've seen reference to the concept of a "natural block" and I think the author means to infer "one from BR, not from shield block buff". But from what I understand of our one roll combat table, they are one and the same.

So if the Prince is hitting once per second in phase two let's say, and shield block lasts 6 seconds, and the shield block buff works by upping your block % chance to 75 and the combat table is single roll, and you have a stupidly high block rating from gear as well, you're going to spend those blocks faster are you not?

12:00:00.00 You gain Shield Block.
12:00:00.01 Prince hits you for 3,200 (300 blocked).
12:00:01.00 Prince misses you.
12:00:02.00 Prince hits you for 3,100 (300 blocked). <- buff is gone!
12:00:03.00 Prince hits you for 4,500 (crushing).
12:00:04.00 Prince misses you.
12:00:05.00 Prince hits you for 4,500 (crushing).
12:00:06.00 Prince hits you for 3,800 (300 blocked).
12:00:06.01 You gain "Shield Block"

Wouldn't you rather stack dodge, and shed block rating, in hopes that 12:00:02.00 is a dodge not a block?

Thugthedum adds Vindicator's Hauberk to the Prince outfit.
Thugthedum adds Boots of Elusion to the Prince outfit.
Thugthedum adds Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch to the Prince outfit.

Now, I have a bad habit of talking over people as they try to answer my questions, so I'll do my best to stop! :)

1.) Is there a such thing as a natural block? I.e. one from block rating, not from the buff. I postulate no, but wait for answers from smarter folk.

2.) In an "avoidance" fight like the Prince, would you not want to avoid block like the plague and stack other forms of avoidance to the sky in order to try to maximize the shield block buff?

3.) If you could stack your combat table against an L73 so that it looked like "0 crit, 0 hit, 0 crush, 30% dodge, 20% parry, 50% block" all the time, without the buff, wouldn't you want that? (this would be better than palla uncrush even! So point being BR sucks against hard bosses until you can get enough to be uncrushable)

4.) The comment about stacking block rating and block value in Heroics: doesn't this also apply to Kara trash and some Kara boss fights? (my original point)

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 10:44 AM
1.) Is there a such thing as a natural block? I.e. one from block rating, not from the buff. I postulate no, but wait for answers from smarter folk.


Yes, you can get a block result without shield block skill active. Say you have a combination of block rating/talents to get to 25&#37; block (on your character window), this means that 25% of attacks that a lv 70 mob makes against you will be blocked, reducing their damage dealt by your shield block value. If the resulting damage is now 0 this will display as "block", if there is still some damage it will display that amount of damage and say in the combat log (### blocked).

Every 7.9 points of block rating you get increases the chance to get a block by 1%.

2.) In an "avoidance" fight like the Prince, would you not want to avoid block like the plague and stack other forms of avoidance to the sky in order to try to maximize the shield block buff?

You would want to stack avoidance to avoid the shield block skill's buff from falling off. There is no specific need to avoid block rating, as it does not effect the rate at which the buff falls off.


3.) If you could stack your combat table against an L73 so that it looked like "0 crit, 0 hit, 0 crush, 30% dodge, 20% parry, 50% block" all the time, without the buff, wouldn't you want that? (this would be better than palla uncrush even! So point being BR sucks against hard bosses until you can get enough to be uncrushable)

Here is why you would not want that:
If instead of that, you had more like 20% dodge, 20% parry, 25% block, then you would have spent 189 less itemization points on dodging (18.9 rating per % * 10%), and 197.5 less itemization points on block(*7.9 rating per % * 25%)

Those 386 itemization points could be stamina instead, for example, netting you 579 stamina (since 1.5 stam costs the same as 1 block rating or dodge rating).

That 579 stamina, with Vitality, and Blessing of Kings, would result in 579 * 10 * 1.15 = 6659 hp.

So thus, the reason you wouldnt want 30% dodge 20% parry 50% block is because you'd rather have 20% dodge/20% parry/25% block and 6659 more hp. Or something like that. (Or maybe you get armor instead of some of the hp. Or block VALUE).




4.) The comment about stacking block rating and block value in Heroics: doesn't this also apply to Kara trash and some Kara boss fights? (my original point)

Trash where you are tanking several, light hitting mobs, yes. For example the group non elite pulls before moroes. Or a couple other fights.

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 10:59 AM
Here is a simple explanation of why block rating is unnecessary and a waste of a stat AGAINST A BOSS. (Not that it makes you worse or anything, it just doesnt make you better while a different stat would).


Lets say youre stacking stam/armor/block VALUE, and you have:
+6% miss (from defense - so 11% total), 17% dodge, 17% parry, 20% block.

Now the "hit table" that wow uses to determine the result of an attack against you, looks like:

1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-70: Block
70-85: Normal Hit
85-100: Crushing Blow (if its a 73 mob, else normal hit)
(no crits due to 490 def).


Now you activate shield block, and your block % goes to 95%

Now the table looks like:

1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-100: Block

All of the extra block, all the normal hits, all the crushes are pushed off the top of the table. Miss, Dodge, Parry are NOT pushed off the table. You are 'uncrushable'. Every attack that results in a miss/parry/dodge will not dod damage and will not eat a shield block charge. Every attack resulting in a block (the rest of them) will eat shield block charge and do normal damage minus your shield block value.



NOW, lets say you go and add 10% more base block, by adding 79 block rating. Block is now 30% base. The hit table without shield block up is:

1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-80: Block
80-85: Normal Hit
85-100: Crushing Blow (if its a 73 mob, else normal hit)
(no crits due to 490 def).


Against a normal mob, you increased the amount of attacks that will result in a block, which is a good thing if you have very high block value and armor (say youre blocking 600 of a 1500 hit, thats significant). If youre only blocking 300 and your armor is worse so its hitting for 2000, thats not very relevant. This is why block rating is good vs soft hitting, multimob trash, when you are overgeared and have very high armor and block value.


Now lets look at your table with shield block up:

1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-100: Block

See, there is NO CHANGE from the table you have with 20% block! Because all of that extra block is off the table, when shield block is up. Its IRRELEVANT in this situation.

Against a boss, you are trying to be in this table all the time - shield block always up. You are trying to never be in the case where shield block is down.

But sometimes a boss will get through your shield block charge. Now you have:
1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-80: Block
80-85: Normal Hit
85-100: Crushing Blow

instead of

1-11: Miss
11-28: Dodge
28-45: Parry
45-70: Block
70-85: Normal Hit
85-100: Crushing Blow

There is 10% more chance of blocking like 600 (with high BV), of a huge hit (4k? 6k? 10k? depends on the boss). Note that Crushing blows were not reduced at all, and wont be reduced unless you MASSIVELY increase block.

So adding 79 block rating to increase your block by 10% against that boss, resulted in the benefit that during the times when shield block is down (not many!), you have a 10% chance of blocking a few hundred points of a hit that is hitting for thousands.

Would you rather have:

A) During a few times in the fight, you have a 10% chance of blocking aorund 10% of a hit?
B) Instead of the 79 block rating you instead stack 118 stamina (because its cheaper), resulting in 1360 more hp with vitality and kings buff.

The 1360 hp is massively more beneficial.



THAT is why we dont care about block value. It doesnt do anything, and wastes item points, that you wish were stmaina or armor or something else.

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 11:03 AM
Now note what avoidance does to help keep shield block up.

In our example above, 45&#37; of hit were being avoidaed (miss/dodge/parry), and 55% were being blocked, with shield block up.

For a mob hitting 3 times in 5 seconds, there is a .55*.55 = 30.25% chance that the first two attacks will hit, and then a 15% chance that the third will crush, so a 4.5375% chance that those 3 hits will go: hit, hit, crush.

Adding 5% dodge, its now a 50% chance that each attack will be avoided, and thus the chance of hit/hit/crush is now only: .5*.5*.15 = 3.75%.

So adding that 5% dodge reduced the chance of hit/hit/crush (getting a crushing blow through before you can put up shield block again), from 4.5% to 3.75%.

However, if that 5% dodge could have been stamina, it would be 5*18.9*1.5 or 142 stam, or 1630 hp.
If you do that a couple times, choosing the stam over the dodge, then you reach the point where even if it DOES go hit/hit/crush, you still LIVE. So instead of just reducing the chance of death by adding avoiadance, you actually eliminate it.

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 11:45 AM
Well then srsly, what's so bad about BR?


In short, BR is bad because it is a waste of an item's budget.

Every item has a set number of "points" that it has to spend on it's attributes. Points that have been spent on BR are points that would have been better spent on armour, stamina, block value, avoidance or threat generating statistics such as hit or crit.



if I get it wrong that it's wasting shield block, then there's really not much wrong with shield block rating at all as a stat. I see a block as an incredibly good thing. You didn't get crushed; and you do get some damage incoming for the rage. It's quite rare that healers can't heal me thorugh


The way the hit system works is on the single die roll model.
Miss
Dodge
Parry
block
hit
crit
crush

Where one die roll falls through the chart to determine the result. Any result of "block" will consume a charge of your shield block ability, regardless of whether it fell in the block range on the table that would have been your "natural" (unagumented) or or the block range of the shield block talent.

If this were NOT the case BR would have more value.



Prince hits you for 3,500 (300 blocked).
Prince hits you for 3,800.
Prince hits you for 3,500 (300 blocked).

No matter how fast he's hitting. But if a rage starved tank skips the shield block because his dodge rating is too high just so he can get some rage, then he's going to see


True, but the odds of you being so raged starved in prince phase 2 that you can't spam shieldblock are infinitesimal. Either that or you are in tier 6 and the fight should be trivial :)



Prince hits you for 5,200 (crushing).
Prince hits you for 3,800.
Prince hits you for 5,200 (crushing).


And that's much harder to heal through. So in that case, BR > dodge. It's mitigation, not avoidance. 35&#37; BR and 500 BV would be heaven! It's like a 35% chance to mitigate via armor -and- mitigate via block value -and- get rage via shield specialization -and- get rage via damage. And the way the stuff is itemized, that's not terribly difficult to attain.


again, your choice isn't simply between dodge and BR. While 35% BR and 500BV would certainly be nice, you would gain vastly more EH through itemization that favoured stamina and AC instead of BR and BV. Also, in fights where you may be getting worrying crushing blows because of frequent hard hits, rage should not be an issue.



The original reason to write the guide was that there is a lot of anti-BR fud out there. I wanted to get across why it was a "bad" stat but at the same time try to diffuse it a bit.


Honestly, I don't think it needs to be defused. The only time where block rating has value is if you can hit passive crush immunity by having total avoidance at 102.4% At that point block value would have tremendous value, but until that point it is utterly useless. Whether or not a passive crush immunity set would be viable for tanks due to rage limitation issues is a topic for another thread :)



I guess I'm always concerned that some new tank (i.e. me!) is going to read a rant "lol that foo thought he had to have 25% block rating zOMG lol block rating is ftl" and go shard all his block rating gear.


Go shard it. Unless it has high block value, then it has value because it means bigger shield slams, not because of the BR.



What am I missing? At this point I'm almost ready to begin advocating we all try to get to 50% block rating, not just 25%!


Crushing blows are the last thing to get pushed off the hit table, so unless your total avoidance is going to exceed 87.4% BR is useless. At that point BR begins to have value, but it's value must be weighed against what you have given up in terms of EH in your itemization.



OK now from theory wonking (which admittedly I'm not great at) to reality (somewhat better track record here).

What I'm doing on the Prince right now is aiming for the sky with dodge, then defense, then EH, but consciously avoiding BR. Because he hits fast. Because I'm not often rage starved on the Prince. Because he can output a lot of damage. I was avoiding BR because I put the facts presented here together in a way that made me think that my "BR was eating shield block charges". (still not sure it isn't!)


It is. BR eats shield block.
my priority list for tanking gear as an MT is 490 def, max possible EH, then SBV and avoidance.



What I'm doing in 25 man content (Maulgar, Gruul so far) is stacking EH to the sky. 15,600 HP, 15,300 armor unbuffed - not bad for a a scrub MT fresh from Kara, but only 490 def and a tiny bit of +parry and +dodge. I figure with three healers spamming me, I'm not helping them out when I avoid. I'm helping them out when I mitigate and can take two hits in a row if they have to run away from the whirlwind for a second.


I'm mainly in kara gear + the T4 shoulders and a couple of stam trinkets. I'm running 16.7k max health unbuffed and 16k armour with 490 def and a little bit of parry and dodge. I think that the extra health and armour makes it more likely that I will survive the two hits, than having a slightly higher chance to block and reduce the incoming damage by 3-400 per hit.



Back to theory...

On this board I've seen reference to the concept of a "natural block" and I think the author means to infer "one from BR, not from shield block buff". But from what I understand of our one roll combat table, they are one and the same.


They are.



So if the Prince is hitting once per second in phase two let's say, and shield block lasts 6 seconds, and the shield block buff works by upping your block % chance to 75 and the combat table is single roll, and you have a stupidly high block rating from gear as well, you're going to spend those blocks faster are you not?


No. Well, sort of. It depends on what you have given up to get the BR.

Let's say your hit table is as follows: (assume crit immune and miss dodge parry total 45%)

M/d/p 45%
block 25%
hit 17.4%
crush 15%

With shield block up that becomes
M/d/p 45%
block 57.4%

If you were to sacrifice EH to increase block % it would make no difference to the rate of shield block consumption:
M/d/p 45%
block 35%
hit 7.4%
crush 15%

With shield block up that becomes (no difference from first example)
M/d/p 45%
block 57.4%

If on the other hand you were to sacrifice avoidance to increase BR, then your charges would be consumed faster:

M/d/p 40%
block 30%
hit 17.4%
crush 15%

With shield block up that becomes
M/d/p 40%
block 62.4%

Not suggesting these numbers are an accurate reflection of your gear, just illustrating a point.



12:00:00.00 You gain Shield Block.
12:00:00.01 Prince hits you for 3,200 (300 blocked).
12:00:01.00 Prince misses you.
12:00:02.00 Prince hits you for 3,100 (300 blocked). <- buff is gone!
12:00:03.00 Prince hits you for 4,500 (crushing).
12:00:04.00 Prince misses you.
12:00:05.00 Prince hits you for 4,500 (crushing).
12:00:06.00 Prince hits you for 3,800 (300 blocked).
12:00:06.01 You gain "Shield Block"

Wouldn't you rather stack dodge, and shed block rating, in hopes that 12:00:02.00 is a dodge not a block?

I'd rather stack stamina and armour to be more likely to live no matter what hits me, because eventually it WILL hit me.

Also, is that a typo? "dodge, and SBR". Stacking SBR isn't going to make the 12:00:02.00 more likely to be a dodge.




Thugthedum adds Vindicator's Hauberk to the Prince outfit.
Thugthedum adds Boots of Elusion to the Prince outfit.
Thugthedum adds Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch to the Prince outfit.

Now, I have a bad habit of talking over people as they try to answer my questions, so I'll do my best to stop! :)


LOL no problem, I just hope some of my answers are worth listening to.



1.) Is there a such thing as a natural block? I.e. one from block rating, not from the buff. I postulate no, but wait for answers from smarter folk.


Long answer: You could use the term to refer to a block which fell within the range that your base block rating defined, but it would have no difference in terms of in game effects from the one that was blocked by the buff. Both would consume a charge of shield block. Only reason this can be a useful term as it may be a useful term when discussing passive crushing immunity.

Short answer: no.



2.) In an "avoidance" fight like the Prince, would you not want to avoid block like the plague and stack other forms of avoidance to the sky in order to try to maximize the shield block buff?


If you are going the avoidance route yes you are correct. I would still advocate the max EH route, even on the prince fight.



3.) If you could stack your combat table against an L73 so that it looked like "0 crit, 0 hit, 0 crush, 30% dodge, 20% parry, 50% block" all the time, without the buff, wouldn't you want that? (this would be better than palla uncrush even! So point being BR sucks against hard bosses until you can get enough to be uncrushable)


The whole idea behind the passive crush immunity thread :) The answer is maybe yes, maybe no. What will you need to give up in terms of EH to achieve this? (remember, you will still eat big magic damage in some fights, still take big normal hits and you need to survive those to) What will this level of avoidance do to your rage, and hence threat generation. Will the dps still be able to beat the enrage timers?



4.) The comment about stacking block rating and block value in Heroics: doesn't this also apply to Kara trash and some Kara boss fights? (my original point)

Stacking block value in heroics and for kara trash is great. Hell, any time a boss becomes very easy to survive/be healed through it is time to try and up your threat generation to speed up the kill.

However, instead of BR and BV. Stack BV and +hit/crit/ap while reducing your armour/avoidance (not so far that you die). This will give you more rage and threat benefits than stacking BR.

I am still firmly in the camp that BR should never be stacked unless you have decided to build a passive crush immunity set :)

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 11:58 AM
It seems Crimsonstorm is a much faster poster than I :)

Armstrong
08-10-2007, 12:07 PM
It is. BR eats shield block.
Only if the extra BR came at the expense of some Miss/Dodge/Parrry.

thugthedum
08-10-2007, 12:08 PM
Yes, you can get a block result without shield block skill active. Say you have a combination of block rating/talents to get to 25&#37; block (on your character window), this means that 25% of attacks that a lv 70 mob makes against you will be blocked, reducing their damage dealt by your shield block value. If the resulting damage is now 0 this will display as "block", if there is still some damage it will display that amount of damage and say in the combat log (### blocked).

Every 7.9 points of block rating you get increases the chance to get a block by 1%.

OK what am I missing. When you hit shield block, you get a buff. The buff increases your chance to block by 75% for 5 or 6 seconds. This converts hits/crushes to blocks. The buff has a limit of two blocks. The Prince starts hitting twice as fast. If you de-equip your 5% block trinket and replace it with a 2% dodge trinket, do you not buy yourself a 7% edge to keep that shield block buff up just a little longer?

I'll admit, I'm confusing the matter here because I am trying to tear down BR and defend it at the same time. Point of my guide is to say "go nuts with BR on trash, heroics etc cause lots of the BR gear you are seeing has more stam (Jade Skull) or more BV. Now, on an avoidance fight, go dodge heavy and reduce BR to a minimum. In a 25 man, aim for EH."

thugthedum
08-10-2007, 12:23 PM
Wouldn't you rather stack dodge, and shed block rating, in hopes that 12:00:02.00 is a dodge not a block?

Also, is that a typo? "dodge, and SBR". Stacking SBR isn't going to make the 12:00:02.00 more likely to be a dodge.

Ah, but I didn't say SBR or shield block rating. I said shed block rating; as in "reduce it as much as possible."

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 12:24 PM
Only if the extra BR came at the expense of some Miss/Dodge/Parrry.

True, I think I made that point later on. But the bit you quoted was probably misleading.

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 12:25 PM
Ah, but I didn't say SBR or shield block rating. I said shed block rating; as in "reduce it as much as possible."
my mistake :) I read "shed block rating" as "shield block rating"

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 12:39 PM
OK what am I missing. When you hit shield block, you get a buff. The buff increases your chance to block by 75% for 5 or 6 seconds. This converts hits/crushes to blocks. The buff has a limit of two blocks. The Prince starts hitting twice as fast. If you de-equip your 5% block trinket and replace it with a 2% dodge trinket, do you not buy yourself a 7% edge to keep that shield block buff up just a little longer?

I'll admit, I'm confusing the matter here because I am trying to tear down BR and defend it at the same time. Point of my guide is to say "go nuts with BR on trash, heroics etc cause lots of the BR gear you are seeing has more stam (Jade Skull) or more BV. Now, on an avoidance fight, go dodge heavy and reduce BR to a minimum. In a 25 man, aim for EH."

The case with the 2% dodge trinket for a 5% block trinket buys you a 2% edge not a 7%. It all comes down to the hit table

Assume 10% miss, 18% parry, 18%dodge, 25% block

your hit table looks like
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-46 dodge
47-71 block
72-87.4 hit
87.5-102.4 Crush

with shield block up that becomes:
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-46 dodge
47-102.4 block

If you were to swap out your +5% block trinket for your +2% dodge trinket you have:

1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-48 dodge
49-68 block
69-87.4 hit
87.5-102.4 Crush

with shield block up that becomes:
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-48 dodge
49-102.4 block

So on 2% of attacks which were previously blocks you are now dodging.

thugthedum
08-10-2007, 12:51 PM
good point.

thanks for playing, btw. I find I'm never happy knowing a fact until I know why it is so.

edit:

also, of course I see all the points about itemization. Obviously, when you come from the standpoint that "the world is my oyster", BR isn't all that grand (unless you can get enough to become truly uncrushable). But in real world choices, so far as an MT going from tanking blues to Kara purpz, it was pretty easy to over stack dodge rating, especially when you keep reading that block rating is the devil. And this new tank is going to find his threat per second suffers in certain fights with too much dodge! What is he to do? At that stage, it's hard to get enough EH together to compensate without something like the tankatronic, furies deck, or the breastplate of kings.

Graalsemk
08-10-2007, 01:02 PM
Glad to help :) I find that trying to answer questions like these makes me rethink my logic on this kind of stuff. Also, writing down all my answers on a forum with participants whose tanking knowledge is of such a high calibre means that any of my misconceptions or misunderstandings will be pointed out to me.

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 02:24 PM
If you de-equip your 5% block trinket and replace it with a 2% dodge trinket, do you not buy yourself a 7% edge to keep that shield block buff up just a little longer?

You buy yourself a 2% edge. With shield block up, your block %age is really "everything that isnt a miss/dodge/parry". Increasing or decreasing block rating, alone, has no effect. Increasing dodge/defense/parry will make more of those attacks be avoided, and thus not be a block.

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Obviously, when you come from the standpoint that "the world is my oyster", BR isn't all that grand (unless you can get enough to become truly uncrushable).
[quote]

Even if you got enough to become completely uncrushable, you wouldnt want the block rating, it would be far better

You get to be uncrushable by hitting a button every 5 seconds. You dont need to sacrifice 5k+ hp to do it via avoidance+block rating. Better to have the high hp from stacking stamina, and get uncrushability by hitting a button.


[quote] But in real world choices, so far as an MT going from tanking blues to Kara purpz, it was pretty easy to over stack dodge rating, especially when you keep reading that block rating is the devil. And this new tank is going to find his threat per second suffers in certain fights with too much dodge! What is he to do? At that stage, it's hard to get enough EH together to compensate without something like the tankatronic, furies deck, or the breastplate of kings.

Pre-kara avoidance (dodge/defense/parry) is pretty darn good, until you get so much that your rage becomes gimped.

The goal is once you start raiding, (Kara, etc), stack Armor and Stamina foremost, followed by Block VALUE, Hit rating, and Avoidance.

Crimsonstorm
08-10-2007, 02:35 PM
There is basically one case where block rating is beneficial, imo.

And by beneficial, I mean "gives a reasonable amount of return for its itemization cost".

That is:

When tanking a non boss (so that youre not hitting shield block), where you are getting hit frequently for small amountd (multimob trash pull), and you have high block VALUE.

In this case, block will function like mini-dodge. You get over twice as much block &#37;age per rating point as you do with the avoidance stats. So if you are able to block like 40%+ of the amount of damage the hit is for, then block rating becomes useful. So for example if youre blocking 600 of a 1500 hit, its useful. This pretty much limits block rating's usefulness to multimob trash.


In these cases, block is actually better than dodge, because its better for rage generation and ease of healing, to take small steady hits (constant small damage), than to alternate between no damage and high damage, which avoidance tends to do. With high avoidance when you get strings of nothing hitting you its bad, because you get no rage, and when you get strings of everything hitting you, its bad because you take a lot of damage.

Mid levels of avoidance are best, (40-45% probably) because that way you get a lot less times of being rage starved, or getting hit every time.

Jeneara
08-13-2007, 04:20 PM
(Just joined the forum, so Hello :))

Stacking block *value* also has the added benefits for Shield Slam, and threat generation, which make it probably 2x more useful than block *rating* in boss tanking.

I'm currently at 21% dodge, 19% parry and a way-too-high 28% block (14.5k unbuffed, human) in my tank gear. Of course, even though we all know and want value over rating, Blizzard hasn't seemed to follow suit - giving us much more access to rating gear over value gear.

I haven't taken any effort to get the Moroes trinket, as I've not had problems tanking Prince (or Moroes) due to my death even the first time around - just the group having issues running around the balcony or crappy infernal landings. I may have been slightly more geared than some first-time Prince tanks however. But if you miss a single Thunderclap and Demo Shout drop (both fully imp. w/talents) its bound to happen alot and hurt.

thugthedum
08-17-2007, 11:21 AM
I am nearly ready to give up on it.

The main strength of the argument was my personal experience, trading Vindicator's Hauberk (lower EH, higher avoidance, more rage starved, less HP) for Jade Skull (higher EH, lower avoidance, less rage starved, more HP) and the Moroes Trinket for a high stamina trinket.

I found on those swaps that increasing my health and decreasing my total avoidance increased rage gen which increases threat output. It adds a tiny bit of stress to healers, but nothing like the kind of stress caused by a warlock accidentally taking aggro.

While I was making these swaps I was noticing that against the better judgement of the tanking community at large, block rating when up, rage went up, threat went up, wipes went down.

I almost didnt equip the Jade Skull out of fear of 'too much block'.

Now I equip breastplate of kings, so it's less of an issue - but while the guide is in disrepair, I think the idea of a guide around when to use BR and when not to is still not a bad idea.

thugthedum
08-17-2007, 11:23 AM
There is basically one case where block rating is beneficial, imo.

And by beneficial, I mean "gives a reasonable amount of return for its itemization cost".

That is:

When tanking a non boss (so that youre not hitting shield block), where you are getting hit frequently for small amountd (multimob trash pull), and you have high block VALUE.

In this case, block will function like mini-dodge. You get over twice as much block &#37;age per rating point as you do with the avoidance stats. So if you are able to block like 40%+ of the amount of damage the hit is for, then block rating becomes useful. So for example if youre blocking 600 of a 1500 hit, its useful. This pretty much limits block rating's usefulness to multimob trash.

This is what I had in mind. Trash fights on the way to bosses. Heroics bosses (L72 stuff).

Tiarnach
08-20-2007, 11:30 AM
The case with the 2% dodge trinket for a 5% block trinket buys you a 2% edge not a 7%. It all comes down to the hit table

Assume 10% miss, 18% parry, 18%dodge, 25% block

your hit table looks like
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-46 dodge
47-71 block
72-87.4 hit
87.5-102.4 Crush

with shield block up that becomes:
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-46 dodge
47-102.4 block

If you were to swap out your +5% block trinket for your +2% dodge trinket you have:

1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-48 dodge
49-68 block
69-87.4 hit
87.5-102.4 Crush

with shield block up that becomes:
1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-48 dodge
49-102.4 block

So on 2% of attacks which were previously blocks you are now dodging.

The thing that I see you guys focusing on is the effect that dodge has while shield block is in place, and not what happens when the charges of shield block have been consumed and weighing the options there...soooo, I'll do it real quick cause I haven't worked on the math yet. It's important to cover that fact to flesh out the 3rd hit information in its entirety.

Now, first of all, we take the 2% to block standard from above and apply it to the hit table, and you get to see those results twice. Which gives you a 2% on each of the 3 hits. Now, alternately if you do not dodge (which on 2 hits you would have a 4% increased chance to dodge, and thus conserve your shield block) then the 3rd hit looks like (from above):

1-10miss
11-28 parry
29-48 dodge
49-68 block
69-85 hit
86-100 Crush


Now, if you stack the equivalent of the 5% block onto the hit table, the first 2 tables look the same as the 5% block (with shield block) table above. Meaning you gain 0% on the hits while SB is up. Then on the 3rd hit, it looks like:

1-10 miss
11-28 parry
29-46 dodge
47-71 block
72-85 hit
86-100 crush

So in this case you pick up a 3% chance overall to in some way mitigate the crushing blow. So, if we take a look at the 3rd hit tables and break them up by crushing blow versus non crushing blow (note:the part where I factor in chance to have shield block up comes next):

3rd hit w/2% dodge:

10+18+20+20=68% to avoid crushing blow.
15% for a crushing blow.
17% for a normal hit.

3rd hit w/5% block:

10+18+18+25=71% to avoid crushing blow.
15% for a crushing blow.
14% for a normal hit.


So, in this case, you are slightly more likely to avoid the crushing blow on the 3rd hit when making the roll against the hit table itself. This would make block seem to be more advantageous for avoiding 3rd hit crushing on a point for point basis. However, we haven't factored in the increased chance to block the 3rd attack due to dodging the first two. The easiest way to do this is to examine avoidance versus shield block probabilities.

Out of 50 series of 2 attacks (100 attacks total), with 2% additional dodge, I would dodge 2 more attacks (does it ever depress you guys to know that we're scraping for 1/50 odds on most of our stuff?). Now, that means that I have a 2% chance of blocking that 3rd hit because my shield block charges are still intact. So, that brings our final hit Crushing vs not table to:

3rd hit w/2% dodge (including additional shield block):

10+18+20+22=70% to avoid crushing blow.
15% for a crushing blow.
15% for a normal hit.

Hrm...so it actually appears that for a 2% dodge vs 5% block, you come out on top taking block for avoiding the 3rd crushing blow in the midst of it all. But what happens if there's a 4th hit (Parry thrash, for example) before your sb timer comes up? Well...you drop back to the 68% non crushing (due to mitigation) value, and now you're 3% behind shield block for that particular attack.

Now, you could actually split these values up into damage taken to a certain extent (5% to reduce 150% to 100% damage vs 2% to avoid 100% or 150% damage), but I'll leave that math for someone that cares. The goal of this discussion is to ultimately reduce burst damage on a tank through the mitigation of crushing blows, and it appears that the hit tables say that a 5% block vs 2% dodge comparison say the block is the better choice for 3rd hit mitigation and certainly the better choice for 4th hit.

Now, my math might be a little rusty, so please feel free to correct me, but I'm fairly certain the above analysis takes it a step further than "Look at the values when your SB is up!"

Tiarnach
08-20-2007, 12:02 PM
Looks like I spotted a small mistake already, 2 attacks out of 50 series is actually a 4% opportunity to have shield block in place for the 3rd strike, thus boosting the numbers to 72% and making 2% to dodge more effective.

Crimsonstorm
08-20-2007, 12:44 PM
The main strength of the argument was my personal experience, trading Vindicator's Hauberk (lower EH, higher avoidance, more rage starved, less HP) for Jade Skull (higher EH, lower avoidance, less rage starved, more HP) and the Moroes Trinket for a high stamina trinket.

I found on those swaps that increasing my health and decreasing my total avoidance increased rage gen which increases threat output. It adds a tiny bit of stress to healers, but nothing like the kind of stress caused by a warlock accidentally taking aggro.


Trading Vindicator's Chest and Moroes Trinket for Jade Skull chest and a sta trinket is a good change in many situations because it increases effective health. The loss of avoidance stats does make you take more damage on average, however with the higher stamina this is ok, since your healers have more time to heal it. In fact, its probably easier for the healers to heal you because they have more room for error.

Additionally, as you noted, dodging less means more rage, which helps you hold aggro better.

These are great changes. The fact that Jade skull has more block rating is irrelevant, except on multimob trash pulls. If you took the block rating off of Jade Skull breastplate, it would be better than Vindicators. Therefore, Jade skull is better than vindicators.



While I was making these swaps I was noticing that against the better judgement of the tanking community at large, block rating when up, rage went up, threat went up, wipes went down.


Those swaps arent against the better judgement of the community. Most raid tanks (not those who only do 5 mans), find Stamina/Armor/Block value to be the most important stats, and thus would favor Jade Skull and the Stam Trinket in most situations.



I almost didnt equip the Jade Skull out of fear of 'too much block'.


The block rating is kindof like resilience. Its like 'oh well, I wish this item had a different stat which actually helped me....but the other stats on it are better than on the alternative, so I'll take it'.


Block rating is good when:
1) You are fighting multiple mobs, and
2) You are blocking for a significant portion of the damage those mobs do in 1 hit.

Many items that happen to have block rating, are often still good in other situations, because block rating is often paired with block VALUE, which rules, and the item with block rating + block value, is generally better than some item with defense and doge rating or whatever else.